Roof Warranties - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Travis · 04-26-2008, 02:33 PM

OK,,,Here is the situation. You estimate a roof that has 9 existing box vents and you replace those 9 box vents and years later condensation damages the interior. Come to find out the house is all cathedral ceiling. Is it my liability or not if I replaced what was there or am I responsible for evaluating every customers inside and out when giving estimates and trouble shooting ventilation. So are we as contractors responsible for fixing a f**k up that was already a f**k up before? What would be the best course of action.

Slyfox · 04-26-2008, 03:32 PM

Thats a tuff one,
i always look for proper intake but i do not always end up inside the persons home thus i could see not knowing theres cathederal ceilings,
but at the same time i'm not visualising how a roofer could pull a pot vent up and not notice insulation packed between the rafters "assuming the home was properly insulated",
maybe its a fake cathederal ceiling and there is a breather space up top like in the cape cod style homes? in which case if it is a condensation problem it would be due to insulation baffles or lack there of rather than the exhaust ventilation units.

Either way the home owners going to have a hard time making you fully liable because it would fall under an unforseen/mistake type problem rather than neglet "i believe anyhow".

tnt specialty · 04-26-2008, 04:13 PM

Travis;
Been there, done that;......No, you as a roofing contractor are not resposible for the ventilation....Unless of course you assume it. Say, if you would have reccomended additional ventilation and installed it when you did the work without specific contract language.
Whenever we add ventilation, we exclude any "design" responsibility. We indicate the customer should consult an appropriate design professional in that particular line of work, (HVAC contractor or design engineer).
Tell them to call an HVAC contractor or engineer.

**Ed the Roofer** · 04-26-2008, 04:20 PM

I can see the inside of most homes when I estimate them and also know which styles of homes in various areas might possibly be vaulted ceilings, but even if I didn't, I add lines in my contract describing that proper intake ventilation and exhaust ventilation are required.

If I included it in the price and they want to omit it, they have to initial that choice. If I did not include it in the price, but left it as a per foot option, that too is their choice after being advised properly.

I have read court documents that would preclude that the roofing contractor is supposed to have been deemed more experienced and knowledgeable than the home owner and should have advised accorcingly in the beginning.

The roofing contractors always lost the court cases that I have read about, but that is only about a dozen samples out of how many out there?

I would also presume that the home owners have some responsibility to inform the contractor what architectural designs are unique to their home, but they probably do not consider that point.

If you have a properly worded Warranty for your scope of responsibility, then certain conditions and incidental and consequential damages would not be your liability.

This is a good example of not covering you azz in the first place and a lesson that can be learned from for the future. Why should a roofer be responsible for the internal humidity conditions present in the home owners living quarters? He has no control over their life style. He had no advance knowledge that the previously existing system redone with the same components would not yield the same satisfactory results.

But, on the other hand, there is substantial information available out there to properly inform any roofing contractor worth his salt on how to advise and bid accordingly per the circumstances they run into.

It is that added degree of initial professionalism and a proper analysis of the existing homes conditions that should seperate the astute contractor from the one whao wants to bid the job as cheaply as possible instead of to the manufacturers specifications and the industry accepted guidelines.

With a vaulted ceiling though, there would be considerable advise/opinion as to even deduce that ventilation would provide little or no merit in the first place, even though I personally disagree with those conclusions in my climate, their is still some justification, none the less.

Ed

**Ed the Roofer** · 04-26-2008, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tnt specialty

Travis;
Been there, done that;......No, you as a roofing contractor are not resposible for the ventilation....Unless of course you assume it. Say, if you would have reccomended additional ventilation and installed it when you did the work without specific contract language.
Whenever we add ventilation, we exclude any "design" responsibility. We indicate the customer should consult an appropriate design professional in that particular line of work, (HVAC contractor or design engineer).
Tell them to call an HVAC contractor or engineer.

Since a properly specified attic ventilation system is a major part of the conditions for a roofing shingle warranty to be in affect, it would be a pretty weak arguement to state that the ventilation aspect is not in your scope of work or knowledge base, and therfor, should properly be advised and installed accordingly.

Although I do agree very much with your contract language to limit your responsibility to limit the design implications to yourself, if you still proceed without advising the client that the system is not up to spec/code then I would still feel that the responsibility would be layed at your feet.

Ed

Travis · 04-26-2008, 05:10 PM

2 particular customers in 2 weeks , same exact problem from roofs installed 3 & 4 years ago, insualtion on 1 is completed nothing now from condensation over the past 30 years and basicly warped the plywood enough to buckle in several areas causing shingles to raise and dip causing water infiltration from the roof now. Would their insurance or mine cover this type of thing or not.

tnt specialty · 04-26-2008, 05:14 PM

Ed;
HVAC, (Heating, ventilation, air conditioning), is a separate "trade" and I would beg to differ as to how courts typically would find the ventilation a responsibility of the roofer based on some manufacture's craftly written warranty. However, as those of us with many years of experience know....anything's possible in a courtroom!

If that were the case, (roofer responsible for ventilation); Since, any roofer "worth his salt" would be able to evaluate the structural integrity of a building.....the roofer would be responsible for say, the rafters, proper foundation, etc.....It's all connected/related!

We had a customer try to sue us because his eaves "sagged" after we installed a heavier roofing material than what was on there. In laymen's terms; The court threw it out based on the fact that as a roofing contractor, we would assume the building was constructed properly. How would we know the eaves were constructed improperly?

Same thing happened a couple of years ago related to attic ventilation....don't know what "court cases" your reading.....there's just too much case-law out there...It typically get's thrown out per summary judgements...

**Ed the Roofer** · 04-26-2008, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis

2 particular customers in 2 weeks , same exact problem from roofs installed 3 & 4 years ago, insualtion on 1 is completed nothing now from condensation over the past 30 years and basicly warped the plywood enough to buckle in several areas causing shingles to raise and dip causing water infiltration from the roof now. Would their insurance or mine cover this type of thing or not.

Firstly, I am not sure I am understanding the scenario(s) correctly, but I will offer general advice, but could you be a bit more specific? What is the 3 & 4 years ago thing and the "insulation on 1 is completed nothing now from condensation over the past 30 years" comments intending to state?

I would suggest that their home owners policy be contacted first. If their company disagrees that it is covered, then they may subrogate against yours, but first, put the ball in their court.

Ed

**Ed the Roofer** · 04-26-2008, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tnt specialty

HVAC, (Heating, ventilation, air conditioning), is a separate "trade"

and I would beg to differ as to how courts typically would find the ventilation a responsibility of the roofer based on some manufacture's craftly written warranty. However, as those of us with many years of experience know....anything's possible in a courtroom!

Passive ventilation on a roof top, or even a PAV installed, in my opinion belongs more to the roofing trade.

I tend to think of the scope from an HVAC contractor to have to do with the mechanical units and there function and the ducting required.

I agree, courts can go anyway the judges attitude on that particular day suits him/her.

Probably the reason I found those case law papers on the internet, was that a non-guilty verdict does not make as much of a splash as a guilty verdict. Plus, I would have been searching for terms such as, "Problems With Improper Attic Ventilation", versus Positive Results From Attic Ventilation, as that would provide too many results that all say the same thing from multiple sources parroting the ventilation manufacturers opinions and test results.

Ed

Travis · 04-26-2008, 07:01 PM

Ok .
for starters I was not as knowlegable 4 years ago about ventilation as I am now(internet has drasticly improved I'm sure everyone's in the last few years)

Homeowner 1: did roof 4 years ago w/certainteed resawn shake shingle installed all vents exactly as they already had(if I remember I recommended more vents but the homeowner did not want them, who by the way passed away since, he is the one I dealt with) 2 weeks ago homeowner calls about roof leak and I send an employee to fix it, he doesn't see anything wrong , she calls back and ask about me fixing the ceiling sorta letting me know she just sued her former husbands employer for $160,000.00 (I'm guessing over death benefits)so I go down there and see its a cathedral ceiling in her bedroom and I ask if there are baffles up there and she doesn't know, I get on the roof and there are no vents in the area of her vaulted ceiling. I did't admit anything, just took pics and told her I would call a manufacture rep and ask him. What do you do in this situation? Admit fault or install ridge vents, hope there are baffles when cutting out ridge vents, fix ceiling . any suggestions would be appreciated.

Homeowner 2: did roof 2.5 years ago , get a call last week about her roof leaking, send employee over there and sealed where a valley and dormer meet(don't see anything wrong)but sealed where we think water might be coming from. few days later it rains again, still leaking, so we both go over there we rip some shingles up and see the decking is wet and buckiling in several areas causing the shingles to buckle up and becoming a pond for water to back up and damage the wood, in the mean time I ask to get in the attic, and find out it is all cathedral ceiling and we have 9 vents on roof which were exactly what they had before,,the insulation is practicly 1-2 inches and very flaky completely trashed from condensation over the years. And I suspect that in the last 2 years the poor r-value of the insulation has caused it to become much more prone to condensation damage causing it to actually buckle the plywood(I prefer osb for this very reason) therefore causing the roof to leak. they have drywall damage, decking damage, electrical wire in rafter cavity wet in 1 spot(not sure how dangerous that is.probably not good. I told them to call their ins. company. not sure they would cover but my guess it would cost $15-$20K to rip off roof, redeck, putting new insulation with baffles and repair damaged drywall. any recommendations on either would be appreciated.

Slyfox · 04-27-2008, 06:25 AM

Home #1, you reccomend additional ventilation and they said no,
damages resulting from that falls on them so long as your roof was installed properly.

Home #2, an experienced insurance rep may try and push the issue that you/your roofers should have seen signs of pre existings problems such as dry rot etc "being its obviously allready an issue at this point" on the deck when you ripped the old roof but he/she won't push to hard "so hold your ground" because over looking something of this nature doe's not constitute neglect.

I believe the issues with both these homes will be traced back to the builder,
and thier lack of installing proper venting for these homes from the start.

10 years ago ventilation had little or nothing to do with roofers,
today it is slowly but surely falling into the roofers catagory,
Today every roof i estimate includes me looking for proper intake venting,
asking about insulation and baffles and than proper exhaust ventilation of the roof, but like Travis stated, 4 years ago i was not doing that.

tnt specialty · 04-27-2008, 08:25 AM

As a builder/general contractor I wouldn't want a roofer determing the attic ventilation in my homes'buildings. I would want an HVAC professional, be it a HVAC contractor's in-house engineer or a HVAC specialized engineer/designer.....Just too much liability now-a-days with mold, etc....

MJW · 04-27-2008, 09:50 AM

Typical case we have here. Too many people thinking roofing is tear off, dry-in, and slapping down shingles.

The customers let them get away with it not knowing.

Discussion made a long time ago here. There is a difference between a professional roofer and a shingler.

No offense Travis. I would go back and talk them into a ventilation system that works with a vented ridge, good intake, etc.....
I'm sure from now on, you will be more attentive to what you are doing for business.

I do agree though that it is not a roofers responsibility, especially for what some are willing to pay.

Travis · 04-27-2008, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJW

Typical case we have here. Too many people thinking roofing is tear off, dry-in, and slapping down shingles.

The customers let them get away with it not knowing.

Discussion made a long time ago here. There is a difference between a professional roofer and a shingler.

No offense Travis. I would go back and talk them into a ventilation system that works with a vented ridge, good intake, etc.....

.

I agree, but what about the interior damage, my liability or their liabilty?

tnt specialty · 04-27-2008, 11:49 AM

It's either your responsibility or not....you decide.....(you have my 2 cents)

It would be kinda like if you acccepted responsibility for an auto accident and you agreed to pay for the painting, but not the body work, or injuries to the occupants.....

Some roofers try to portray their vast/superior knowledge over their competitors, only to have it come back and bite them!

As for attic ventilation in regards to roofing; About as far as I would go would be to reccomend the standard ventilation as reccomended per the applicable codes, (UBC, IBC, IRC), and specific application, with specific exclusions as to actual functionality, as there are tremendous varible possibilities based on known and unknown construction techniques/details that may or may not have been utilized by others, previously. FWIW

Slyfox · 04-27-2008, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tnt specialty

As a builder/general contractor I wouldn't want a roofer determing the attic ventilation in my homes'buildings. I would want an HVAC professional, be it a HVAC contractor's in-house engineer or a HVAC specialized engineer/designer.....Just too much liability now-a-days with mold, etc....

I agree with you on that myself because of the fact that proper ventilation falls under the work of numerous trades "in the new construction area',
Intake - normally in the eaves thus a siders job,
Air Flow - baffles installed between rafters normaly during insulation thus an insulators job,
Exhaust - ridge, power or pot vents in the roof thus roofers job.

Neither of the 3 steps fully work with out the other 2 steps.

But in a re roof situation its the roofers responsibilty to check on all 3 and i'm sure Travis will look for venting problems more carefully in the future,
i know i have been.

Sorry Travis but i can not respond to what you are or are not responsible for by law,
but from a fellow roofing contractors point of view i would say the only responsibility you have here is to offer the home owners a good price on correcting the ventilation problem "at cost".
If you have to re deck/re roof some on the second home i would offer a good price there also, maybe not at cost but bid it with half the normal profit margin maybe or some thing like that.

Travis · 06-18-2008, 12:19 PM

[quote=Travis;428822]Ok .
for starters I was not as knowlegable 4 years ago about ventilation as I am now(internet has drasticly improved I'm sure everyone's in the last few years)

Homeowner 1: did roof 4 years ago w/certainteed resawn shake shingle installed all vents exactly as they already had(if I remember I recommended more vents but the homeowner did not want them, who by the way passed away since, he is the one I dealt with) 2 weeks ago homeowner calls about roof leak and I send an employee to fix it, he doesn't see anything wrong , she calls back and ask about me fixing the ceiling sorta letting me know she just sued her former husbands employer for $160,000.00 (I'm guessing over death benefits)so I go down there and see its a cathedral ceiling in her bedroom and I ask if there are baffles up there and she doesn't know, I get on the roof and there are no vents in the area of her vaulted ceiling. I did't admit anything, just took pics and told her I would call a manufacture rep and ask him. What do you do in this situation? Admit fault or install ridge vents, hope there are baffles when cutting out ridge vents, fix ceiling . any suggestions would be appreciated.

Ok here is an update on this one
Send my insurance company down there, they say I'm not liable, tell me to forward any lawsuit papers to them. After my insurance company goes out, she calls again and says it leaking again. I go down there and her friend cut out a small piece of drywall and see the rafter size is a 2x6 with r-19 packed completely against the plywood with the plywood all rotten looking(form condensattion, not roof leak). She has no baffles , no air space at all. Basically told her that even if there was a ridge vent it would have done no good at all. What would any of you do here? Let the ins. company duke it out or what? I hate to go this route, but this lady thinks it my fault that the construction of this addition is my fault. I told her the only way to fix this right was to rip all the drywall and insulation down, fur the rafters down to 2x10 size for r-30 and install baffles and drywall and add ridge vent. Any suggestions?

neolitic · 06-18-2008, 12:55 PM

Tell her it was outside your scope of work
and she needs to contact her insurance co.
Listen to your insurance guy and
watch what you say to the HO.
As long as you are confident in the work
that you did, hunker down and let it blow
over you.

**Ed the Roofer** · 06-18-2008, 01:03 PM

That is what you pay money to your completed operations portion of your general liability insurance for.

It is in their hands now and they are also responsible for providing you an attorney who must have your best interests in mind, not the insurance company liability. But, as he defends you, he is also defending the insurance company.

The insulation matter is a pre-existing condition which was not a part of the scope of your work.

A more diligent inspection at that time, could have alerted you to this strong potential for condensation accumulation leaks and you could have written an option for the remediation, and then, in writing, the home owner could have signed away the responsibility for this problem, by not allowing you to provide the additional required work.

Ed

Travis · 06-18-2008, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer

A more diligent inspection at that time, could have alerted you to this strong potential for condensation accumulation leaks and you could have written an option for the remediation, and then, in writing, the home owner could have signed away the responsibility for this problem, by not allowing you to provide the additional required work.

Ed

It was a lay over(ReRoof) we didn't do a tear off. I recommended, but they declined. If it was a tear off, I may have been able to do an inspection of the decking and determined they might have a problem at the time.