Ed the Roofer

I am doing a storm damage tear-off and reroof of a home and detached garage which both were struck by a large tree from a wind storm recently.

Garage was bid for a 2 layer T.O. but there actually is a hidden 3rd layer. The bottom course of one of the original roof layers was trimmed off, so as not to be noticeable.

House showed only a 1 layer tear-off, but we just noticed that the shingles curling down on the eave edge concealed a 2nd layer of CDX decking with another layer of shingles sanwiched in between the top and bottom layer of decking.

What is my proper course of action in dealing with the Insurance company regarding these hidden and unforseen additional shingle layers and additional layer of decking on the home?

The curled shingles and them being painted together hid the fact that there was another deck underneath.

What is the responsibility of the insurance company for this?

The HO's do not have the funds for the job in the first place, on their own, without the insurance claim paying for it, and so far the insurance company agreed with all of my measurements.

I will be getting change orders signed off by the homeowners, firstly before I contact the insurance company about this, so they do not impede the job progress.

The insurance is with the "Good Hands" people

Thanks,

Ed

A W Smith

call the insurance adjuster back and tell them what you have found, I have never had a problem with them when additional issues are found. This reminds me of a tear off i did in Jamesburg. There was asphalt roof over asbestos. After i had the asbestos remediation done what did it reveal? an old cedar shake roof over skip sheathing. The attic was completely finished and there was no access to the underside which would have clued me in. I was lucky to be able to get additional funds for the extra work but it just about covered my expenses as I felt guilty about missing the cedar and did not charge much more additional than the cedar tear off and sheathing actual cost.

Ed the Roofer

AllState started off really cruddy for thes HO's. They actually mismeasured the house with the first and second adjuster and finally I mhad a 3rd adjuster actually keep his appointment with me an we measured it together. They were only coming up with about 40 % of the total size of this home.

I hope the 3rd guy is still assigned to the claim.

Ed

A W Smith

If you have no direct contact info for this third adjuster request that they send him out again. Remind them that he is the adjuster most familiar with the job and scope of the work. it might also help to take photos of your addtional finds. I dont know about Allstate but i have had insurance companies not come out at all and just accept photos for the addtional claim.

tinner666

" Do to unforeseeable conditions discovered when the job was started, it became evident that the original proposal did not address the NEW scope of work". Therefore, we are submitting a 'Change Order' to address the 'current' scope, which will address the additional levels of roof material and decking. IF we discover any new issues after removing the 'discovered' layers, a second 'Change Order' will need to be authorized.

__________________
Frank Yes, I DO sell domains and hosting and Websites.
Slate Repairs, Richmond, Va.
$7.49 .Com Domain Names and Websites

Travis

I don't know about you guys, but Allstate is the crapiest insurance company, hands down. I've worke 2 hailstorms, 2 hurricanes and I think they just straight up suck. I get so pissed everytime I see that deep voiced allstate guy on tv commercials. They need to quit paying him those big bucks and pay their claims with reasonable pricing. I have yet to see them not lowball every single claim I have worked. Purely a crap insurance company. ALLSTATE SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!

anyone else feel the same???

Ed the Roofer

I believe some people tend to agree with you.

http://allstateinsurancesucks.com/phpbb/index.php

Ed

dougger222

I no longer do work on Allstate claims. Their prices suck, their adjusters suck, their office people suck, their spokesman sucks, they suck. I hate telling home owners I can't do their roof but I won't cut my prices by $100-150 a square, sorry.

Met with two big wig adjusters for Allstate and they were almost embarresed of the fact that they work for Allstate. On a towing forum I visit daily a member said his friend is an Allstate adjuster and he uses another company for all his insurance needs, LOL!

Even before I used Xactimate they didn't pay my prices which were way lower than they are now. A storm chaser came to my job the other day and he claimed to have gotten top dollar out of Allstate and my jaw dropped. He said on all his claims he tells the adjuster the claim number of the job he got paid good on and says they pay up.

Just to make things clear, Allstate is the worse insurance money can buy. If Allstate came to me and offered all my insurance at half the rate I'd laugh at them and say get lost. I got AM FAM and really like working with them, on average they pay my prices in full with no bs. Had State Farm before them and I like them too, before that Auto Owners but never filed anything with them in three years, had both homes insured with them and half a dozen vehicles with full coverage. Even though I don't like their prices I like trying to get my money back, LOL!

Here's the "good",
Chub, Sentry, AAA, American Family, State Farm, Country, Liberty Mutual, Western National, West Bend Mutual, Met Life, Farmers, Travelers, and Federated.

Here's the "bad,
Allstate, Horrace Mann, and Auto Owners (although I've yet to see a roof denied by them they pay low).

Just the other day sent pics of a hole in a roof to an adjuster with Travelers with a diagram and estimate and they covered it for hail damage. When I met up last night with the owner to get a check she mentioned an adjuster had never stepped foot on her roof. The only problem I see is that it took them 2 weeks knowing a hole was in the roof to do anything. Two months ago the tree exploded by lightning and the adjuster never stepped foot on the roof. The branch punched a hole through both layers of shingle and through the decking.

Grumpy

I have found insurance companies are alot more willig to pay for unknowns if youc an prove them than home owners are willing to pay for. Insurance companies understand you sometimes just never know, where as home owners always have the excuse that you should know.

Document everything from start to finish, call the adjuster immediately. I've never had a problem with this with insurance companies, though I also haven't had this problem of this magnitude.

I just did an allstate job. The guy said to me "I am from South Carolina, they said to me that I'd be inspecting basements. I've gotten more than 75% roofs and am afraid of heights." he then proceeded to hand me his camera and said just take some pictures and tell me the measurements.

I had already priced the jobs two ways, one for a direct repalcement which has a 3 ply BUR roof on a 3/12 dormer for some strange reason, and the other to ice shield and shingle it which ended up being cheaper. All state paid for the 5 ply bur roof that I bid and we were contracted by the home owner to install shingles.

However having that, the biggest Bit... I have maybe met in my professional career was at an allstate arbitration where they were refusing obvious hail damage. We ended up losing, and I ended up dealing with her on another job later in the same year. I didn't tell her I remembered her, but man she was a Bit... again. She was arguing over price and finally after we spent an hour on the phone going over every square foot and nail, she said "Listen, can you do it for our price or not, because if not I will deny their claim." It ended up being within my negotiation tolerance so we did it for their price, but wow I wanted to spit in her face.

My wife has a cousin who works for Allstate, and so does her cousins' husband. They work in the aoto claims department however, and are nice enough people. Infact when I totaled my van last year he was explaining how I could have actually gotten money out of my insurance company. But since the accident was my fault and I was getting enough to pay off my van, hospital bills, and a little bit extra I didn't want to scam or con anyone. I am too honest for that kind of crap.

__________________
-Grumpy
Chicago Gutters Chicago Roofing

RidgeWalker

Grumy,

Insurance companies NEVER over pay. And there is an established formula the name of which escapes me at this moment. It's for car accident victims and it does calculate how much you supposed to value you claim for. He might have been referring to it when he said you could have gotten more money. It's all a head game really, the insurance company tries to make you believe they are paying more then the should when in reality they are paying less then they should. So when some one stands the chance of getting more, thier moral compass kicks in and say's: hey don't screw the insurance company. So in the end they get less then what they were really owed and paid for in thier premiums.

As for the additional layers, it's best to take pictures showing all layers on the roof at the same time. Call the claims department immediatly and say this roof is uncovered, and were not proceeding with the job unless the additional layers are paid for. You should get immediate approval if you can prove it, ie pictures.

__________________
Restore My Home Construction
Atlanta Roofing Repair
My SN Profile

Grumpy

Never say Never. They will commonly overpay.

Insurance companies use database programs, ofte times xactimate, sometimes something custom and unique to that company. It's all absed on square footages etc... You can usually convince insurance companies to pay more when you see their estimate print out. To do this, you must point out accessories they may have missed. Point out sizes they may have mis-measured.

If possible, I try not to bid until I have seen a copy of the insurance companiy's estimate sheet so I don't bid too low (which probably won't happen) but it goes back tot he old rule of negotiations of "let them make the first offer". Then submit your bid with a letter explaining where they made a mistake.


On to my personal story which I believe Ridge was talking about... It's a long story "why" I could have gotten more money. Basically the insurance company paid the value of my vehicle and totaled it. I *could* have filed other claims, for example he said I could have gotten around $10,000 if I wanted to fight for face scars. (I can show a gruseome pic of my face the day after the accide, I have a permantent scar from eye to eye). He said I could have gotten various other monies for other claims such as back injuries, which are damned hard to DIS-prove. There was a long list he rattled out which he said when people hire lawyers they know about and immedietly ask for.

So basicallya s I said the accident was my fault. Nobody else got hurt. The money I got paid off my old van, so I dropped it.

__________________
-Grumpy
Chicago Gutters Chicago Roofing

Ed the Roofer

Well, here is the current update to the goings on with this insurance deal.

I e-mailed the photos of the additional layer of shingles sandwiched in between the additional layer of plywood decking and was given the authorization to proceed as planned.

We will wind up replacing about 39 of up to 16 foot rafters that were deflected or cracked or knocked out of position in addition to 4 longer hip rafters, 2 on the garage and 2 on the house.

I have signed extra work orders approved by the home owners for this work to be done at a time plus materials basis.

After I spoke with the adjuster, to confirm the e-mail correspondance, the insurance adjuster stated that they have to use their formula for the additional work from their software program, which I believe is exactimate. He did not tell me what their figures are and stated he would have to wait until the end of the job to recalculate the adjustment.

What if their per lineal foot figures differ substantially from the hourly rates we have involved in the project?

What if their figures for 1" x 6" plank board decking is different than my contracted and approved change order agreement states, for 550 feet at $ 3.50 per foot?

What if they do not jive with my price of $ 2.00 per square foot for plywood decking replacement and dropping down to $ 1.50 per square foot forthe additional layer of decking and the cost of .50 cents per square foot for the additional tear-off cost for the extra hidden layer of asphalt shingles discovered hidden in between the 2 layers of plywood decking?

I know, this has not happened yet, but I would like to be prepared for the discussion beforehand, when and if these points do come up after the project is completed.

Thank You,

Ed

Grumpy

I'm sorry Mr. Adjuster but I have an open roof and I need approval right NOW. Get over here please or I will have to temporarily tarp is and charge you for that too. I can work and not know what I am going to get paid.

What if? The answer is simple. The customer signed the agreement saying that they would pay. They pay you the insurance company pays them, the customer eats the difference or fights it. Don't sign things if you don't know what they mean. However at your prices I don't think there will be a problem.

__________________
-Grumpy
Chicago Gutters Chicago Roofing

dougger222

Last job I had to put down decking the insurance company paid $172 a square. That's not R&R that's just putting over the old wood boards.

Ed the Roofer

Since the adjuster has not responded to my request to get his version of the costs, and we had the decking off and got signed change order for all of the work, I decided to keep the adjuster posted with step by step job progression photos showing pretty much all of the damages that had to be repaired.

It would have been too cumbersome to e-mail all of the photos to him, so I created a web-site forum tonight, and so far just has this one job photo review in place.

I have been toying with this visual aide for a while, but I wanted to send him 133 progression photos to validate the claim. Now, he can see them all, just by clicking the link I supplied to him.


Future potentials for this forum and my intent and desire is to show off job talent and diversity and also to have the current job in progress photos available. This way, each home owner we are working for can view their job in progress from the comfort of their office or on their computer at night time.

Additionally, I may consider creating additional forums showcasing the various colors of shingles and various manufacturers styles on actual homes we have installed them on. It may give the undecideds an opportunity to see how certain colors go with various exterior color schems on homes.

Lastly, in the interim, while I am deciding on the input and verbage I want to inject into my upcoming web site, this will be something for people to view.

Ed

dougger222

I started a tear off last year with the thought that the adjuster would go ahead and total the whole roof and not just the back. The back was ice and watered and papered with a tarp on top for five weeks. Finally the adjusters made it out to the house and the go ahead was given.

This may sound like a bad deal but I felt better the way it was for five weeks than the way it was for the five months prior with holes in the air vents and a bad tarp job.

Grumpy

Link it Ed.

__________________
-Grumpy
Chicago Gutters Chicago Roofing

Ed the Roofer

I hate the way some company adjusters intentionally avoid meeting with contractors.

I showed up for todays 10:00 am appointment at 9:45 am. My gutter contractor was there since 9:30 am. The daughter in the home was awake with her son at 8:30 am.

I waited until 10:45 am and then called the adjuster. He told me that he wasn't sure if I had told him I would be there or not, so he decided to come earlier and did not have my cell # to contact me with.

No one saw hide nor hair of the guy and he did not knock on the door. He left a "Sorry We Missed You" note stuck in the front door, instead.

Every e-mail correspondance I sent to him contained both my office and cell #'s, so unless he did not bring the customer file with him, I find that very hard to believe.

Why the heck is there little communication on their behalf?

Arghhhh!

I know. So they do not have to address all of the details with a knowledgeable tradesman and only deal with an unwitting home owner insted.

Ed
P.S.
I know pricing questions are usually a forum taboo, but do I seem in line with my per foot pricing for the various items? These are the rates listed in my standard proposal, which was supplied via e-mail to the adjuster prior to us beginning the project and required additional repairs. A per foot basis seems like a fairer method to arrive at an honest tally, versus the undefineable time plus materials method.

2" x 4" rafters @ $ 6.00 /ft @ 408 feet

2" x 6" rafters @ $ 7.00/ft @ 144 feet

1" x 8" soffit @ $ 5.00/ft @ 64 feet

1" x 6" plank board decking @ $ 3.50/ft @ 550 feet

1" x 6" fascia @ $ 4.50/ft @ 70 feet

Pricing totals are line itemed and listed below.

Plywood removal and replacement:
Remove and replace one layer of plywood decking using 1/2" 4-ply cdx @ $ 2.00/sq ft

Remove only, one additional layer of plywood decking @ $ 1.50/sq ft

On this project, we had rough carpentry, finish carpentry, roofing, chimney vent pipe and sheet metal work, and also painting of replaced soffit and fascia boards, shoring up the existing rafters while replacing the decking, and nightly protective tarping, along with raking the blown in insulation from being disturbed and blown around by the 45 mph gusts we had on one day when we tried to replace the decking, in addition to removing and reinstalling the electrical weather head flashing and cable securement bracket..

I have heard that typically, an insurance company will provide an additional 20 % to 30 % on top of the sub-total of all combined invoiced work to allow for general contractors O & P. Am I correct in that information?

Original contract amount with no wood included:
$ 10,252.00 = Original Contract, Roof T.O & R.R. including new Gutters and D-S on home
$ 2,448.00 = 2" x 4"s
$ 1,008.00 = 2" x 6"s
$ 320.00 = 1" x 8" pine soffit wood R & R
$ 1,925.00 = 1" x 6"s plank board decking R & R
$ 315.00 = 1" x 6"s pine fascia board R & R
$ 130.00 = Painting labor for 2 man hours
$ 55.68 = Paint materials and supplies

Since I and all 3 adjusters who were out to the property did not initially discover the additional layer of plywood decking and also the cut back hidden extra layer of shingles on both the garage and the house, I had a change order signed by the Home Owner for an additional .50 cents per square foot for the additional shingle layer tear-off, which is my standard rate for additional layers that I would normally include in the written proposal if I even slightly had expected that there was even a minute possibility of a hidden layer existing.

I am still in a bit of a quandry regarding the pricing for the additional layer of plywood decking, as my standard proposal in this instance, did not take into consideration a hidden layer of decking.

My standard pricing for plywood replacement starts off at $ 2.00 per square foot, but when the volume goes beyond 25 % of the entire square footage of the job being quoted, the amount gets reduced to $ 1.50 per square foot for the remainder above the initial amount charged.

Per change order with the Home Owner, I priced it out for $ 2.00 per square foot for the layer needing removal, disposal and replacement and at $1.50 per square foot for the additional hidden layer of plywood decking.

I counted the sheets used for replacement and that total was 53, so that means that 106 sheets were removed, in addition to the other half, being 53 which were also replaced.

I want to be sure that I do not have any major discrepancies when and if I get the opportinity to discuss this with the adjuster, if he ever contacts me.

I have found that the company staff adjusters usually seemingly intentionally show up at a different time to miss meeting the contractor in person, as the 1st 2 adjusters did and now this 3rd adjuster seems to be doing

So.....Does my pricing seem to be in line? This winds up being a significant total dollar amount so far, not including the possibility of the O & P they are theoretically supposed to add on. How does this stack up in an insurance adjusters exactimate program calculations?

If someone would like to prepare an unauthored version of an exactimate estimate for me, I would gladly pay you for your time and efforts.

Here is the link to the photo forum I created for this project:
http://rightwayroofing.freeforums.org/index.php


Thanks for reading through this voluminous post and for any feed back given,

Ed

Pavola

I can't imagine how much time its taken to do the documentation and chase down the adjusters, but do you get paid for that? Fortunately, I guess, I've stayed away from insurance work, but I have 3 ins. agents, all from Farmers, that want to refer claims to me. Anyone familiar with them and how well they work with you?

Ed the Roofer

I am wondering the same thing?

3 1/2 hours to create that photo forum and upload the 175-200 photos.

3 appointments with adjusters who did not show up at the appointment time agreed to.

2-4 hours of typing in and e-mailing and attaching up to 5 photos per e-mail until I thought of creating the forum for that purpose.

Hours doing searches on forums regarding the issues and how to explore and find out how his exactimate total will come out versus my true and real contracted prices on a per unit basis.

I just don't know. I do not go after this type of work, but it did not initially seem to present any of the problems I have had to contend with so far.

Ed