Plywood Vs Particle Board

 
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:01 PM   #1
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Plywood Vs Particle Board


I would like to say, that I am a painter by trade..... However I have done a couple summers as a roofer as well as roofing with my dad who was an ornamental plasterers and GC....

My dad died 2.5 years ago ( save the condolences)

I need a new roof on my house.

2 roofers have suggested using particle board (wood shavings glued together make a sheet...

OK...

first off, I have a shop, my father built, single story, 2200 sq ft, flar roof, cinder block, which has 1/2 plywood deck, the sehd off the back is 15x65...

it has this particle board for the roof, my dad (the smartest man I have ever known) said particle board is actually illegal, but it was alot cheaper, so he did the shed with particle board inside of plywood.

there are soft spots in the flat roof... and soft spots in the shed roof, I actually fell thruogh the shed roof and repaired it with 1/2 exterior plywood... 30lb felt and amazingly got shingles that matched.

ok moving on...

My house, is a 12 12 pitch (could someone explain how you determine a 12 12 pitch?

tits T locks with ceder shake. my house dates back to 1918...

I have 2 layesrs of asphalt, and it needs a complete tear off...

2 roofers suggested that particle board as being good stuff. but using dads advice, and my own experience 2 years of roofing, plywood is the cats ass...

not partical board...

both suggested particle board...

so heres my question, which is BETTER?

Also, would you go with a 30 year or 50 year? I know average conditions, shave off 10 years... I live in Buffalo NY...

My roof definitely needs help tho. I have two estimates, one for 7800 and one for 8500...

anyways... 50 year shingle yay or nay, and ply wood vs particle board?

supposedly particle board is just as good as plywood, but for some reason i still think plywood is the way to go...

So if you could explain this to me....
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:13 PM   #2
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Re: Plywood Vs Particle Board


im not a roofing contractor but ive seen my share and I would not use ply wood on a roof i have seen it bow and buckl time after time thats old school now most commonly used is 3/4 5/8 advantec t&g or 5/8 osb they sell it up here for roofing it strong and wont buckl but if you can spend the extra $ advantec is the way to go you can leave it out side for ever and it wont swell or rott tuff ****

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Old 07-12-2010, 09:16 PM   #3
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Re: Plywood Vs Particle Board


12/12 is very simple. For every twelve inches of horizontal run, there is 12 inches of vertical rise. 12/12 is equivelant to 45 degrees.

A 5/12 would have 5 inches of vertical rise per 12 inches of horizontal run.
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:30 PM   #4
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Re: Plywood Vs Particle Board


I just want to add that if you end up going with ply wood be sure to use ring shank nails or mabee even ceramic screws to fasten .good luck neighbor
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:34 PM   #5
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Re: Plywood Vs Particle Board


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Originally Posted by jchomes View Post
im not a roofing contractor but ive seen my share and I would not use ply wood on a roof i have seen it bow and buckl time after time thats old school now most commonly used is 3/4 5/8 advantec t&g or 5/8 osb they sell it up here for roofing it strong and wont buckl but if you can spend the extra $ advantec is the way to go you can leave it out side for ever and it wont swell or rott tuff ****
Take a breath, JC! We like to pretend we're all literate and stuff around here, and use capitals, punctuation and paragraphs.

While I would never class OSB as being superior to plywood, it comes very close to being equal, as long as it's kept dry. Plywood may have a slight advantage in nail-holding power.

I'm a strong proponent of Advantech also, but not because you might be using it on a roof. A properly done roof will never let the sheathing see water, in which case the extra cost of Advantech is wasted. Where it shines is in being able to endure a few rains before drying-in is complete.

As for 50-year shingles... how old are you, Carr?
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:48 PM   #6
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Re: Plywood Vs Particle Board


i have done many roofs in buffalo,use osb making sure stud lines face interior,ice and water shield is a mustat eaves and rake edge,and proper roof vents 25 year arcitectual shingles will last longer than you
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Old 07-12-2010, 10:04 PM   #7
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Re: Plywood Vs Particle Board


For the record I am 28...

now, should I use ice and water for the whole roof? or just 6ft?

Also as of right now I have yankee gutters... and to be honest, I have never, in my life have had a problem with them, except for the once in a lifetime taring...

however both recommended regular aluminum gutters... as a painter I have seen all there is to offer via regular gutters...

also, My house isnt insulated properly, and I have a few ice problems... think, 4-8ft icles in the winter. I plan to solve this with both blown in, and as well as insulation in the roof... but regular gutters just dont seem to hold up as well with that sort of ice...

I am not rich and can pay my own bills... so doing all this at once, well one step at a time.

Plus I KEENELY remember MORE than once, up on the shed roof with dad, with the jack hammer to break up the ice on the shed roof in hopes to not losing the gutters.. on the house thats a feat that isnt possible...

I sunno, after 28 years, I have had to retar my yankees, once, with mesh tape and that was over 10 years ago... and I dont have to clean them out every year... however it seems like thats way old school. Every job I do requires gutter cleaning....I have YET to clean my yankee gutters.
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Old 07-12-2010, 10:16 PM   #8
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Re: Plywood Vs Particle Board


sorry tin, I am bearly litterate and suck at grammer ,was just giving my two pennies worth but thanks for the criticism Ill have to work on that !!
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Old 07-12-2010, 10:25 PM   #9
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Re: Plywood Vs Particle Board


Well,,well,,,,neighbors- how are you guys

Use CDX- 3/4" ice shield 6' up from the eves and line your valleys as well. over hang the IWS 1-1/2 on to the facia- do it write the 1st time the OSB- it's OK,, it will do and is accepted.... but if it was my house -3/4 CDX

and the obvious- metal edging Rake/drip

Guys-Kudos
Brian

Last edited by PrestigeR&D; 07-12-2010 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 07-12-2010, 11:46 PM   #10
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Re: Plywood Vs Particle Board


Think I just might wander over to the painting and framing section and start throwing off-the-wall advice around next.

Carr, you keep mentioning particle board. I believe you are referring to OSB (oriented strand board). Particle board has no business being anywhere near the exterior of any building.

Let me see if I understand your issue. You got bids for a new roof from two legitimate contractors and they are very close in price. It sounds like your roof requires a full tear off and resheet, correct?

If I were sheeting a new roof over trusses, I would recommend a minimum 5/8" CDX but 5/8" OSB is acceptable. Even though some local codes allow less, I don't recommend it. Codes are meant to be minimum standards, not quality standards. You are not sheeting a new deck, you are RE-sheeting over the existing skip sheeting once the old roofing is removed. In this case, 7/16" OSB is standard material and MORE THAN ADEQUATE.

DO NOT ice/water your entire roof. It is a good idea to run it on the eaves and up the valleys and any chimney crickets you may have. You don't need it anywhere else. It should extend two feet beyond your exterior walls so how much you need depends on how deep your soffits are and the pitch of the roof.

As far as the shingle you choose, anything you choose is only as good as the installer. A thirty year laminate is generally a good quality roof. I personally don't care much for selling 40 yr shingles as the only difference between a 30 and a 40 with some mfr is the wrapper...nothing else. Now a 50 yr (or lifetime) does have distinct material differences from a 30 year. It is generally a thicker shingle and asthetically, you see more dimension in your roof with them. A 30 yr will lay rather flat and a 50 year will have more detail. Also, being a thicker shingle you are going to get more life out of it and also can be a selling point if you decide to sell in the future.

Hope this helps
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Old 07-13-2010, 05:25 AM   #11
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Re: Plywood Vs Particle Board


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
Let me see if I understand your issue. You got bids for a new roof from two legitimate contractors and they are very close in price. It sounds like your roof requires a full tear off and resheet, correct?

If I were sheeting a new roof over trusses, I would recommend a minimum 5/8" CDX but 5/8" OSB is acceptable. Even though some local codes allow less, I don't recommend it. Codes are meant to be minimum standards, not quality standards. You are not sheeting a new deck, you are RE-sheeting over the existing skip sheeting once the old roofing is removed. In this case, 7/16" OSB is standard material and MORE THAN ADEQUATE.
Not a roofer, but do a couple of resheets a year. Usually remove shakes and renail the existing boards with ringshanks, lay my 7/16th OSB sheathing (staying on the rafters, which is sometimes a real PITA) and use ring shanks.

DO NOT ice/water your entire roof. It is a good idea to run it on the eaves and up the valleys and any chimney crickets you may have. You don't need it anywhere else. It should extend two feet beyond your exterior walls so how much you need depends on how deep your soffits are and the pitch of the roof. Again good advice. When you figure for your 2', I believe that is horizontally, so if you have a 1' overhang a 3' wide piece of I&W isn't going to make it anyways. I sometimes split a piece, sometimes just lay it. If it is a high wind area I also use I&W on the rakes.

As far as the shingle you choose, anything you choose is only as good as the installer. A thirty year laminate is generally a good quality roof. I personally don't care much for selling 40 yr shingles as the only difference between a 30 and a 40 with some mfr is the wrapper...nothing else. Now a 50 yr (or lifetime) does have distinct material differences from a 30 year. It is generally a thicker shingle and aesthetically, you see more dimension in your roof with them. A 30 yr will lay rather flat and a 50 year will have more detail. Also, being a thicker shingle you are going to get more life out of it and also can be a selling point if you decide to sell in the future.

Hope this helps
I use the GAF shingle almost exclusively and there is a difference in thickness between the 30 and 40 year shingle. For the cost difference between the 40 and the lifetime I would take the lifetime (50 year).
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Old 07-13-2010, 06:55 AM   #12
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Re: Plywood Vs Particle Board


why OSB, why not just 5/8 plywood? we use 5/8 plywood and then ice/water shield 3 feet up from the edge,of course hanging over a bit,the use drip edge on the rakes.
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Old 07-13-2010, 07:38 AM   #13
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Re: Plywood Vs Particle Board


First find out what the spacing
is on your rafters.
Then come back and we can
give you some real advice about
what the thickness of your deck
should be.
I think everyone here is assuming
your rafters are 16"o.c.
A lot of those older houses can be
up 32" o.c., and that would want 3/4"
deck for sure.
While you are at it, Google around
and clear up the difference between
OSB and particle board in your own head.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:21 AM   #14
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Re: Plywood Vs Particle Board


Quote:
Originally Posted by PA woodbutcher View Post
I use the GAF shingle almost exclusively and there is a difference in thickness between the 30 and 40 year shingle. For the cost difference between the 40 and the lifetime I would take the lifetime (50 year).
GAF is one that there is a difference from 30 to 40. I like the old ELK P+ (now I believe Timberline lifetime) because of the distinct difference in the shingles. Get out your micrometer and measure a Cam30 and 40, or a Landmark 30 and 40 and tell me what you find.
Neo, if it's going over the original skip sheeting that is where your support is. Unless for some reason you plan on removing the skip sheeting there is no need for anything thicker than 7/16 or 1/2".
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Old 07-13-2010, 09:49 AM   #15
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Re: Plywood Vs Particle Board


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
GAF is one that there is a difference from 30 to 40. I like the old ELK P+ (now I believe Timberline lifetime) because of the distinct difference in the shingles. Get out your micrometer and measure a Cam30 and 40, or a Landmark 30 and 40 and tell me what you find.
Neo, if it's going over the original skip sheeting that is where your support is. Unless for some reason you plan on removing the skip sheeting there is no need for anything thicker than 7/16 or 1/2".
If he is going over.
We don't know what he don't know.
Wouldn't assume what he isn't saying....
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:26 AM   #16
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Re: Plywood Vs Particle Board


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolitic View Post
If he is going over.
We don't know what he don't know.
Wouldn't assume what he isn't saying....
Good point.
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:51 AM   #17
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Re: Plywood Vs Particle Board


If your going over the exsisting spaced deck boards than 7/16 or 1/2 osb is fine. If you want to pay more (plywood cost double or more than osb) than go with 1/2in plywood. You are only making a nailable surface with the new decking and you should be concerned with the added weight of using thick decking as it's only there to make a nailable surface.

More than likely you'll have 5.5ft or 5.75ft of ice and water shield on the eaves. To achieve a true 6ft you would have to get into a third row. On a 12/12 (very steep) roof installing ice and water on the whole thing would be overkill. With a steep pitch you won't have ice dams going too far up your eaves.

Back to OSB versus plywood. Other than high grade 5 ply plywood (not cheap) I like OSB better. We see plywood from the 80's buckling all the time. With H clips it's better though but not many used H clips until the 90's.

Do your home work and good luck with your project.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:22 PM   #18
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Re: Plywood Vs Particle Board


Quote:
Originally Posted by welterweight View Post
why OSB, why not just 5/8 plywood? we use 5/8 plywood and then ice/water shield 3 feet up from the edge,of course hanging over a bit,the use drip edge on the rakes.
Reading between the lines the reason is it is not necessary. he won't be taking existing sheathing off, just going over existing sheathing.

7/16 OSB is fine in that application.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:26 PM   #19
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Re: Plywood Vs Particle Board


As far as I know particle board is not a legal substrate material, and as far as I care OSB should also be illegal for use as an exterior sheathing product. I don't want to start an OSB vs Plywood argument again, we go through that at least once a year. Check your local codes, anyone considering the use of a product for use in which it is not approved should be immediately elimated from your considerations. If you intentionally choose to hire someone intentionally doing something not allowable by code then you are responsible for their failures.

Sounds like you have what we call "a plywood job" cedar shingle with multiple layers of asphalt over them, installed on spaced decking. Spaced decking is 1x6" with a 2" gap between. That gap must either be filled or covered over. Most guys will cover over the plywood, I have seen some fill the gap. Filling the gap may or may not give you an adequate surface for your nailing. You may end up having to adjust exposures on your shingles or nailing locations, either will void your shingle warranty, therefore a plywood covering is best. Guess why we call these "plywood jobs"? because we use plywood. Normally our minimum thickness plywood when spanning rafters would be a 1/2" 4 ply CDX. However on jobs like this, because we are leaving the original 1x6 spaced boards, we can get by with the 1/2" 3 ply CDX.

To determine is a roof is 12/12 is actually the easiest of all roof slopes IMO, simply stand in the street and hold a piece of paper up to the slope of the roof, If the slope of the roof is even with the corner of the paper, you have a 12/12 or 45* slope. What 12/12 means is simple, for every 12" horizontal, we rise 12" verticle. If you draw a triangle to that specification, you have a 45* slope.

50 yar or 30 year? IMO don't bother with the 50 year unless you're doing it for the look. some of the more fancy colors are available in the 50 year shingle. The bottom line is you're going to ither move or get bored of the color or have a massive storm causing you to replace the roof before 30 years time.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:31 PM   #20
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Re: Plywood Vs Particle Board


Don't use ice and water shield for the whole roof. It can lead to condensation problems even with proper ventilation. Your best bet is to do the ice shield at all the problem areas including gutter lines, valleys and pre-flashing areas. Then use a good 30# felt paper of fiberglass reinforced like CertainTeed Roofer Select. With that, you're set.

Becareful with the insulation, as it's possible to disrupt the ventilation and proper insulation with proper ventilation will lead to a reduction in ice. Improper ventilation will void your shingle warranty, cause mold and all sorts of other problems.


With this type of roof if you have gutters we always factor in replacing them as part of the roofing project. The plywood will raise the roof surface so at no less will a new gutter flashing be needed, and if you are going to go to that trouble just repalce the whole gutter system.

Don't use OSB, you'll be sorry when it gets wet the first time.

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