Paying Employees/Hourly/Piece - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

erstat84 · 07-29-2007, 11:50 PM

Seattle Washington:

What is everyone paying there employees? Piece work Rate/Hourly.

For piece work on new construction I am paying $15-20 for 30,40, 50yr laminates depending on pitch. If it is a Presidential product or designer I top out at $31 12/12.

Thanks

Grumpy · 07-30-2007, 02:21 PM

I'm paying my repair guys hourly. I pay my install guys by the piece.

RooferJim · 07-30-2007, 07:21 PM

hourly for quality. subing and piece work only leads to a rushed bad install.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com

Travis · 07-30-2007, 07:41 PM

subing and piece work only leads to a rushed bad install.

I disagree. Hourly can lead to milkers and slackers

johnny_b01 · 07-30-2007, 10:34 PM

I think that your safe haven would be to not pay them by piece nor by hour. Pay them "x" amount of dollars when the job is done. I've seen a roofing company pay their roofers by the hour. They were paid under the table if you know what I mean. They got $10/hour in cash depending on their start time and quiting time. They did the work but some of them worked for the whole day and it was so hot they boiled up their for very little money. My uncle did a roof job a few years back, and he hired some men and they basically did not do the work in the it was that bad that he got my dad, a mutual uncle of our and his father in-law to help him out to finish the job.
Anyways in the end it comes down to this, getting the job done. I believe that saying you will get "x" amount of dollars for each team member when the job finished when it comes to payment. You don't want to find yourself in the same predicament that my uncle got into cause in the end it could cost you money.

theroofinggod · 07-30-2007, 11:46 PM

milking can lead to the unemployment line,It depends on the proffessionalism of your employees

Grumpy · 07-31-2007, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RooferJim

hourly for quality. subing and piece work only leads to a rushed bad install.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com

Not true if you know how to structure your payment schedule. for example, give a piece rate slightly higher than the "going rate" then give a bonus for perfect completion which makes it really really worth their while to do things right. Give them a copy of your inspection form so they know what you will be looking for. Inspect the job before you pay them.

True though, when you pay by the piece most jobs tend to get rushed so you have to watch them very very closely, but it's not impossible to get quality. But paying by the hour does not guarantee quality either. Guys still have to be properly trained... plus EITHER way you can't teach heart. You either got it or ya' don't. You either want to do a good job (craftsman) or you want to do a fast job (hack).

Grumpy · 07-31-2007, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny_b01

I think that your safe haven would be to not pay them by piece nor by hour. Pay them "x" amount of dollars when the job is done. I've seen a roofing company pay their roofers by the hour. They were paid under the table if you know what I mean. They got $10/hour in cash depending on their start time and quiting time. They did the work but some of them worked for the whole day and it was so hot they boiled up their for very little money. My uncle did a roof job a few years back, and he hired some men and they basically did not do the work in the it was that bad that he got my dad, a mutual uncle of our and his father in-law to help him out to finish the job.
Anyways in the end it comes down to this, getting the job done. I believe that saying you will get "x" amount of dollars for each team member when the job finished when it comes to payment. You don't want to find yourself in the same predicament that my uncle got into cause in the end it could cost you money.

Isn't that still by the piece? It's just a bigger piece. If you pay your guys "properly" and file W2's etc... you are still required to keep track of hours even if you pay by the piece. I'm toying with the idea of starting up a crew again and using a hybrid system of hourly plus piece. Pay them an hourly wage near or at minimum wage, then ALSO pay them by the piece. In theory they should earn more at the end of the week. This will satisfy the IRS's requirement of logging hours for all employees.

Hourly does breed milkers if you have the wrong guys. I have proof. A few years ago when I started I put together a crew. I paid hourly and production rates doubled! Jobs that used to take 2 days took 3 or 4. Jobs that used to take one day now took 2. I lost my ass on that crew big time! I'd have made more paying fully insured subs, infact when I added it up I paid to my hourly employees exactly the ammount I'd have paid to an insured sub... then I still had to pay my guy's insurance.

That 6 month fiasco really almost put me under.

tom m · 07-31-2007, 08:51 AM

Grump that inspection form prior to payment is a great solution for details that are a concern. This ensures that special attention is paid in critcal areas. I should make one up for my self Thanks. Field work is not a worry.

tom m · 07-31-2007, 08:56 AM

You can try hourly for the crew and lead man but compensate a commission for your lead man if jobs come in on time or even a little bonus when under. Then the guy working with them is the boss instead you. It gives some motivation to the guy in charge the labors shouldnt be gripping its just a job.

Grumpy · 07-31-2007, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom m

Grump that inspection form prior to payment is a great solution for details that are a concern. This ensures that special attention is paid in critcal areas. I should make one up for my self Thanks. Field work is not a worry.

I am upfront about what I expect from my subs. If they did something wrong, but I didn't give them specific instructions then it's my fault and I feel in all honesty I have to pay them to fix it. The inspection form should be accompanied with a manual, which is a fancy word for a picture book, and in this picture book it shows your installers how you want things done.

If what they did doesn't look like the book, they better have a good reason or they have a problem. In addition I am really really big about telling them that I have no problem authorizing extra money BEFORE they do it but we might have an issue if they ask for it after.

it's all just about communication and setting your expectations BEFORE proceeding.

tom m · 07-31-2007, 10:50 AM

A picture book is idiot proof and could be used in many phases of constr. Good policy on your expectations as well.

RooferJim · 07-31-2007, 05:37 PM

Do you tell your custumers you do not have real employees but use independent sub-contractors to do there roof ??

RooferJim

tnt specialty · 07-31-2007, 06:41 PM

30,40, 50 yr. comp; to 6/12 = $22; Graduates to $ 40 for 12/12.

"Pres/" types; To 6/12 = $ 30; graduates to $ 50 for 12/12.

These are "direct labor" piece work prices; Not "sub" prices. I would anticipate at least 50% more, if I were to "sub", (which we don't).

tom m · 08-01-2007, 06:07 PM

Ill pay you these rates where are you?

erstat84 · 08-01-2007, 11:22 PM

I have been doing piece work for new construction because it is easy to keep track of. Residential is a whole new ball game trying to keep track of. I am thinking of paying my lead guy hourly plus bonus incentive. This should give him a incentive to keep every body working so he does get the bonus. What do you think?

load351 · 08-02-2007, 08:27 PM

We get paid by the hour. Our crews ususally do new construction, rough framing that is, and the new starts on houses are down. We have done 25-30 tear-offs and re-roofs this year. For us, hourly works well. We have a pretty good crew, and everyone pulls thier own, otherwise the rest of us would let them know if they were not. Plus we take the time to flash properly, and correct any issues that may need repair. Also, since some roofs have easy areas, and also more time consuming areas, it would not be fair to always get stuck with the junk (skylights, dishes, 5x7 wall).

RooferJim · 08-03-2007, 08:41 PM

Thats the honest way.

tekwrytr · 09-11-2007, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy

Hourly does breed milkers if you have the wrong guys. I have proof. A few years ago when I started I put together a crew. I paid hourly and production rates doubled! Jobs that used to take 2 days took 3 or 4. Jobs that used to take one day now took 2. I lost my ass on that crew big time! I'd have made more paying fully insured subs, infact when I added it up I paid to my hourly employees exactly the ammount I'd have paid to an insured sub... then I still had to pay my guy's insurance.

That 6 month fiasco really almost put me under.

I think you must mean that your production rates halved, and your production costs doubled.

The issue of hourly rates is a thorny one, and anytime it is mixed with work quotas, it is essentially the same scenario whether you call it "hourly" or "piecework." That is, if your hourly employees are expected to perform at a certain average rate, that is not a salaried position--it is disguised piecework.

There is one reason, and one reason only to pay roofers by the hour. That is when the productivity exceeds an equivalent amount paid to pieceworkers. If your hourly workers don't make money for you, get rid of them, or hire a competent manager. Not a "pusher," and especially not a screamer, but a competent manager.

The greatest lack in the roofing industry is competent management. Solve the problem of management, and piecework as a motivation becomes much less useful. At the same time, the value of hourly workers increases. The core problem is not lazy, unproductive workers, but rather inadequate and ineffective management.
tekwrytr

Grumpy · 09-12-2007, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RooferJim

Do you tell your custumers you do not have real employees but use independent sub-contractors to do there roof ??

RooferJim

Don't ask, don't tell... but if they ask I don't lie. I then go into the pro's and con's of employees vs subs and explain how "most" employees are paid like subs anyways. Blah blah blah. The biggest con of using subs is... you guessed it... quality. We promote and deliver quality. We are all about quality. We use only quality subs. We've tried some hacks and fired them and repaired their work. You've gotta try a few crews before one sticks.

"Mr. Customer we do as much as we can in-house but we find it impossible to do everything, especially something ultra-specialty. We have a couple crews that we work with, some I have known for literally years, and they do excellent work or I wouldn't be using them. Youa re covered by our warranty, you are covered by our insurance so even if we have to sub something out rest assured it's going to get 100% right... or simply don't pay us until you're satisified."