This seems like a big turn off for me. I am worried that water will get trapped behind the shingles. Is Owens corning the only company that does this? What companies use spotted strips? Should I be worried?
I've never laid Owens Cornings so not sure, there mascot is the Pink Panther, right? If your looking at a shingle brand check out Certainteed and GAF, both have been around for well over 100 years.
As long as the shingles seal down properly you shouldn't have to worry about water getting under the shingles.
It's the cheap roofing contractors you see putting down Owens Corning shingles, imo.
Depends on what OC shingle you choose. Those 20 year 3 tabs will blow off before you get the ridge cap on. The laminate Owens Corning is a good shingle. I would take them over a Timberline right now. The ridge is probably the best I have seen. Take a look and try a few, you will be surprised.
I'll agree with the 17 years as of late in our area Dougger. We are in the high hail band. I think it may be less than that now. I have done very few where the shingles were 30 years old. My house was one of them.
Out of the last 100 call-ins, where the Home Owner knew the age of their existing roof, the majority of them were having them replaced between the 12 and 15 year point.
I'm going to have my secretary run through the old calls and verify if that is accurate when she has nothing else to do. Maybe next December?
I know that is not scientific, but it does add credibility to the manufacturers claims about most roofs not being vented and installed correctly. Also, are the home owners reporting what the real estate agent told them before they bought the home?
Oh yeah, the roof is new! It was just put on 9 or 10 years ago! Yeah, right. New, my azz.
If you were the manufacturer of a product, and offered a 30 year warranty, wouldn't you have various exclusions?
Should it not be expected that they expect that their product to be installed per their "Minimum" specifications?
This is not intended to be a debate about whether or not you or anyone else agree that a proper balanced ventilation system extends the life of the shingle roof.
It is more of, does the manufacturer have the right to require their "Minimum" specifications be followed.
If I was hanging my neck on the line for 30 years plus, I certainly would have expectations that for the warranty to be enforceable, that my "Minimum" ventilation and other application standards be followed.
Anyone who disagrees with that, is just crying because they feel so abused by the big conglomerate roofing manufacturing corporations, and expect that they should be handing out free roofing shingles any time there is a "Perceived" defect.
Do the job RIGHT the first time, and it will last much longer than the average actual real world viability that they currently sustain.
For cripes sake, carpets inside a protected environment get replaced more frequently than a roof, and they are not subjected to the contstant changing seasons and instantaneous temperature fluctuations and direct UV degradation in addition to being installed by 90 % trained monkeys.
It is the exception, rather than the rule, that the installers and company ownership really take pride and care to follow the proper details, precisely and explicitly, to ensure that the materials last as long as they possibly should.
Water wicks up under the tabs 1", on all shingles. That's why EG nails are a no-no.
AND, I've seen several roofs in which the water ran across the roof, under the tabs because of the solid seal. Not to worry though, when the water gets to a shingle joint, it finds a bit of relief by going under the shingles. Then, the felt keeps it from the wood for a few years. The roof usually lasts 6-7 years before the leaks show.
Is the solid strip really that bad? I keep going back and forth with OC. I talked to the guy at ABC Supply and he said that most people use OC on high end jobs. They use Tamko on regular spec jobs where people don't request a certain shingle. He said that contractors prefer OC over Elk, GAF Timberline, and Certainteed Landmark. Visually, I like Elk architectural shingles. I don't want to throw up 50 year OC shingles only to have them leak in 6 years.
The only Owens Corning shingle job I did in the past 10 years or so, was by Home Owner request because of a unique color she had desired.
It was a 50 year Oak Ridge, was ventilated 100 % eave intake and attic exhaust to the maximum capacity available.
One year later, I was there to re-caulk the sheet metal chimney flashings and do our one year maintenance check up, and I notice that all, and I mean ALL of the shingles were completely loaded with spider web cracking. It was only the beginning stages, but that was only one friggin year on a 50 year shingle.
They are not even available to my customers unless they special request them, ever.
I have to believe you Ed, because I haven't checked up on the few jobs we did with OC multi layer shingles. Have not had any complaints though, except the one that had 3 tabs. They blew off before we were done, but the homeowner knew there was no warranty on them from us because he HAD to have them.
Anyways, they may be better here, because they are made here. I have some relatives that work at the OC plant, but we still don't use them.
I have to admit though, that they seemed like a good solid shingle with the multi layer ones and the ridge are probably the best I have seen.
The spider webbing just amazed me after such a short period of time of a well ventilated structure.
I am in the process of transferring my film archived photos and scanning them into digital format. I'll have the girl pull that one to the front of the pile, so that maybe I can post them.
How long ago did you do this job? I'm not sure how long OC has carried the Oak Ridge line. If it was a while back, do you think OC has fixed the problem? I was just about to order OC. Man, I am confused. It seems like every roofer likes a different brand. Certainteed seems to have lines that have failed horribly and have class actions suits against them. What is up with their Landmark line? Do they have problems? I have read bad things about timberlines as well. I don't mind spending good money on materials, but I need a good product. What about ELK? The supply guy said they didn't sell much ELK. Do roofers just go with what is the cheapest shingle? I guess it could be considered repeat business. ABC said Tamko is the best selling shingle.
Tamko Heritage 30's no problems
Tamko Heritage 50's, minor spider webbing
Certainteed Horizon, class Action, major
Gaf All Lines, class actions, over 15 year production period
Elk, just bought out by GAF 2-3 months ago
Owens Corning, considered "Builders Grade" well known name, biggest garbage dump of shingle materials, especially all of their light weight 3-tabs and my ONE and ONLY one experience with their 50 years.
Install any shingle wrong and without the PROPER AMOUNT of BALANCED VENTILATION, and they will all have failures.
I'll post a website link for you regarding the class action claims later tonight. I've gotta run right now,
Background: Asphalt roof shingles are the most common covering used on residential properties in North America. Early shingles were made by saturating rag-felts with asphalt and by coating each side of the saturated felt with an asphalt-mineral filler-coat, covering the top surface of the shingle with mineral granules (sunlight and weather resistance) and coating the bottom surface with a material to prevent shingles from sticking together in storage or shipment. Beginning in the 1940's the felt mat was changed to a zero rag-content using wood fibers and cellulose (newspaper). More recently many manufacturers began producing shingles using a fiberglass mat to replace the felt. The fiberglass mat was thought to have good tear resistance, possibly slightly better fire resistance, and as the mat was generally thinner than the felt mat, we believe that there were also economic advantages for both the manufacturer (less asphalt used in the mat) and the roofing installer (lighter material, easier to install).
In certain instances specific roofing products have shown common early failure, failing in a characteristic pattern which is easily identified (such as the thermal splitting defect. Some manufacturers offer limited warranty coverage of their product. Many roofers also guarantee their work to be free from leaks, but usually for a time period substantially shorter than the manufacturer's rated life of the roof material.
In cases which we've handled in the 1990's to about 2004 and involving thermal splitting or tearing of fiberglass-based asphalt shingles, some manufacturers (such as GAF) offer a limited product warranty. Following a fairly involved claims procedure requiring documentation, photographs, and a sample of damaged material the manufacturer may elect to warrant the roofing material on a pro-rated basis depending on the age of the roof and its warranted life. Sometimes the manufacturer's warranty covers only material cost, not installation cost (labor, demolition, removal of old materials) unless the roofing contractor chooses to extend such coverage.
The cost of roofing material is not the main ingredient in roofing cost. Labor and possibly disposal of old roofing material are significant costs. Out of concern for future roof life, some roofers are reluctant to install new roofing atop failed material even where additional layers of roofing are permitted by local codes.
Some homeowners are reluctant to install as new roofing the same product which failed early in the first place. Manufacturers might have changed the formulation of the product to improve durability, but they are understandably reluctant to say so, out of concern for increasing product liability. Without assurance from the manufacturer that a product which failed early has been modified to correct the problem, we advise our clients to consider using alternative products with design and performance expectations having a better track record. Use links at the left of each page to navigate this document or to view other topics at this website. Green links at page left show where you are in our document or website. If you just "scroll down" you'll miss some important articles. See links at page left.
Roofing Manufacturer Contact Information
Atlas Roofing, for Atlas Shingle roofing shingle warranty claims, 802 Highway 19 N, Ste. 190, Meridian MS 39307 601-484-8900
Bird Inc., for Bird Shingle roofing shingle warranty claims (obs. address: 1077 Pleasant St., Norwood MA 02062 617-5551-0656) is - an affiliate of CertainTeed Corporation - so try contacting CertainTeed: P.O. Box 860, 750 East Swedesford Road, Valley Forge, PA 19482 USA Phone: (610) 341-7000 Fax: (610) 341-7113 E-mail: corporate@certainteed.com
Celotex Corpration for Celotex Shingle roofing shingle warranty claims, 4010 Boy Scout Blvd., Tampa FL 33607-5750 813-873-1700
CertainTeed Corporation for CertainTeed Shingle roofing shingle warranty claims, (some folks spell it Certain Teed or Certainteed Roofing), Technical Service Department, 1400 Union Meeting Road, PO Box 1100, Blue Bell, PA 19422 - 1-800-345-1145 or 610-341-6212 FAX.
A CertainTeed Roofing Product warranty claim form in .pdf form can be found at http://www.certainteed.com/NR/rdonl...4CB-89DDCF39457E/0/internetclaimform71504.pdf and a second .pdf document is a FAQ or question and answer sheet about how to make a shingle or roofing product warranty claim to the CertainTeed Corporation - see http://www.certainteed.com/NR/rdonlyres/3564FD08-0533-4BA6-9B75-6AFE5832A145/0/WarrantyFAQs_2_.pdf .
[Original address we had on file was: 750 E. Swedesford Rd., Box 860, Valley Forge PA 19482 610-341-7000]
GAF, for GAF roofing shingle warranty claims, 1361 Alps Rd., Wayne NJ 07470 201-628-3000 - Technical Services & Guarantee Status Office 1-800-ROOF-411
GAF class action settlement - call 800-414-4370 for more information or see the GAF Class Action Lawsuit Settlement Website
Globe Building Materials for Globe Shingle roofing shingle warranty claims, 2230 Indianapolis Blvd, Whiting IN 46394 219-473-4500
IKO Chicago, Inc., for IKO Shingle roofing shingle warranty claims, 6600 South Central Ave., Bedford Pk, IL 60638 708-496-2800
Malarkey Roofing, 3131 N. Columbia Blvd., Portland OR 97217 503-283-1191
Glad you liked it. here is a little more from inside that massive contents. Take your time and read through this mans site, as he has a wealth of useable information about everything on it. Check out the mold information as well.
Ed
SHINGLE LIFE / WEAR FACTORS for Asphalt Shingle Roofing Products
While the historical cost-performance of this product has been good in most cases, durability issues and wear-out or material failures occur earlier than expected in some situations. The expected life of a roof covering depends on many variables including:
Asphalt Shingle Quality: type, quality, thickness, shingle design (cutout 3-tab versus laminated) and rated or design-life of roofing material selected
Asphalt Shingle Color: in hot sunny climates lighter colors tend to resist sunlight damage and last longer.
Roof Shingle Age: the shingles in the photo at the top of this page are organic based asphalt (asphalt-impregnated paper coated with mineral granules) at or near the end of their life. Typical life expectancy for roofing products can vary widely as a function of the material composition, type, installation details, and other factors discussed in depth at this website. Typical shingle life expectancies range from about 15 years to 40 years.
Sunlight and Heat Effects on Asphalt Shingles: Storing shingles in hot sun makes them stick together, making damage likely as they are pulled out of their bundle.
Cold and Freezing Effects on Asphalt Shingles: Storing shingles in freezing conditions increases the chances that a shingle will crack when being used if applied in cold weather, especially ridge cap shingles which break when bent. We used to cut those and then leave them inside on a radiator until needed.
Rain Effects on Asphalt Shingles: believe it or not, shingles are not quite waterproof and depend on roof slope to shed water effectively. Shingles that are left exposed to rain and then installed may violate the manufacturer's warranty and may fail early, possibly due to the effects of temporarily trapped moisture at the time of application. I've found sections of asphalt shingle roofs all showing early wear traceable to a specific bundles of asphalt shingles that were at the top of the stack and exposed to the weather. This photo shows the effects of rain on shingles when the bundles were left outside for some time before use.
Stacking Shingles in Storage: shingles should not be stored at the supplier nor at the job site stacked higher than two pallets. If shingles need to be stacked higher, separator boards or plywood are needed under each pallet to protect the shingles below from damage by the weight and edges of the pallet and shingles stacked above. We've seen shingle pallets eight-high with no inter-pallet protection at HG Page Lumber in Poughkeepsie and at an occasional Home Depot. But don't try giving the supplier your personal advice about how to stack their product, you'll just annoy them. Inspect and reject visibly damaged shingle bundles and hope that there are not more subtle damage effects not visible at first sight.
Bending Asphalt Shingle Bundles: roofers like the shingle bundles to get up on the roof by magic - by a special loader or carried up by an assistant. A smart assistant spreads the bundles out over the roof to avoid too much weight in one place (point-load structural failures). But especially on a steep pitch roof, some "experts" put all of the bundles of shingles across the ridge. Bending shingles over the ridge, especially in cold weather, may violate the manufacturer's warranty and may damage the shingles, including subtle damage that appears after installation as early cracks, tears, or failures. Reference: http://www.owenscorning.com/around/roofing/specs/Classic-C.pdf from Ownens Corning cites their requirements for handling and storing shingles.
Asphalt shingles should be stored: flat, in un-opened bundles with labels intact and legible, in cool, not freezing and not hot temperatures (under 110 degF.), under cover, protected from the weather, protected from damage by stacking more than two pallets high, and kept that way until they are ready for use.
Asphalt roof shingles should be delivered: in flat, un-damaged, un-opened bundles, protected at the job-site (as described above), and when moved to the rooftop, shingle bundles should be laid flat, not over the ridge, and should not be placed with too much weight in locations that may damage the building structure.
Building factors: roof slope, problem areas in roof shape & design, orientation towards sunlight
Roof Ventilation: attic or under-roof ventilation. Un-vented roofs, especially in sunny hot climates, stay at a higher surface temperature and can be expected to have a shorter life.
Technical material composition and asphalt shingle design details (roofing material components, manufacturing process, wind-uplift prevention)
Marketing and economic considerations (aggressive sale of new roofing material by some contractors, reluctance to or economic reasonableness of patching damaged areas on older roofs)
Manufacturing Defects and Asphalt Shingles: even the best manufacturers are at risk of episodes of producing a defective product. The asphalt shingle manufacturing line is a challenging environment where variations in control of the process can produce a defective product with a reduced life. The thermal splitting failure discussed at this website is an example of a widespread fabrication defect that affected many asphalt shingle manufacturers.
Weather and Weather Exposure: variations in climate and other local weather conditions affect roof shingle life
Wind Effects on Roofing: exposure to damage (wind, tree limbs, hail, snow, ice, foot traffic). Key in wind blow-off of asphalt shingles is whether or not the shingles were properly installed, especially properly nailed according to the manufacturer's recommendations. Also on occasion a brand new roof that has not had a chance for its self-sealing adhesive to work may blow off in windy conditions even if it was nailed properly. Review the workmanship defects below as a number of them constitute improper nailing and can cause a wind failure of roofing that may otherwise may be mis-diagnosed.
Nailing of Asphalt Shingles: asphalt shingle roof nailing errors: improper nailing pattern, omitted nails, too many nails, nails not properly placed in the shingle, and lazy use of the roofing nailing gun: nailing without moving on the roof, leaning out too far, making nails enter the shingle on an angle so that the nail head cuts the shingle; failure to set nails properly (too deep - cuts shingle, too shallow, cuts shingle above). The older roof nailing guns that used staples required even more careful use of that tool. If the roof shingle staple was driven too deeply it cut the shingle and it would blow off of the roof. If the shingle was left too high or canted (lazy-leaning out too far again) the protruding staple cut the overlapping shingle above.
Underlayment Effects on Shingle Life: omitting the underlayment, installing underlayment or shingles over a wet, icy, or snow-covered roof deck
Roof Flashing Errors: there are too many of these to list on this asphalt shingle page. Water runs down hill. Flashing installers sometimes forget that, misplacing flashing, omitting flashing, using continuous rather than step flashing at roof-wall abutments and at chimneys, improper valley flashing, nails through flashing, relying on roof cement rather than flashing, and misplacement of drip edge with its vertical section behind rather than over gutters. OPINION: some roofers opine that underlayment is completely unnecessary. I go with the manufacturer's recommendations. They have a high interest in the successful application of their product.
On Asphalt Shingles:Carl Cash asserts that the mean durability of "20-year" shingles is less than 20 years everywhere in the U.S. except Alaska. Variations in climate permit calculation of a wear-acceleration factor for various cities. Higher thermal load (hotter climates) means shorter life. Yuma, AZ mean durability was calculated at 12.6 years, for example, and Ft. Meyer FL 14.1 years while Chicago at 19.7 years and Erie, PA at 20.7 years showed longer life in cooler climates. Cost Effectiveness of Asphalt Shingles:
Other roofing materials also are affected by thermal loading. Cash calculates that the life cycle cost of steep-slope roofing shows that asphalt shingles still provide the most economical performance for the home owner! ("Asphalt Shingle Performance," Carl Cash, P.E., Construction Business and Technology Conference, Providence Rhode Island, 2/28/97.) Given these variables, it is not likely that a "20-year" shingle will expire exactly twenty years after it is installed. When a roof lasts longer than its promised life no one complains. If a roof needs replacement substantially sooner than its anticipated life, consumers are understandably concerned.
I think the life of most roofs are less than you think. When having extended conversations with customers and potential customers, I find that most will eventually mention the 'brown spot' first appeared 4-5 years ago. :whistling
There is a reason for this. They, and WE are conditioned to claim that 'THis last storm' caused the leak. We all know the insurance companies will deny claims on existing and accumalative damages.
This puts the failure dates at about the 6-8 year mark in many cases.:furious:
Just my observation on what I've seen and heard from homeowners.
And about the sealer strips. on ANY keyway, water will stray under the shingle, slate, tile, and anything else used. I have slowly torn a roof or 3 off trying to find leaks on 3-tabs and dimensionals. 98% of the time, I could find NO causation per-se.
The water getting to the deck would originate at a healthy joint. No holes, cracks or damage, but the water would be coming in. In SEVERAL places. Dimensionals: water would apparently over load the headlap, almost always if the joint was below a valley of other water accumalater.
3-tabs: Enough water would traverse the shingles and come in at the joints 6" away. I seen a lot of these.
I have NEVER ripped a 'problem roof' without taking a LOT of time to analize what happened and where.
with balanced ,waterproofing,sufficient insulation,and balanced ventilation,most mfgrs roofs perform about the same---I have heard of the water being trapped with the solid OC sealant and rusting the nails out before though
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