No More Permits

 
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Old 03-07-2018, 03:05 PM   #21
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Re: No More Permits


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How does a permit allow for recourse?
If there is no permitting/inspection of a roof, for example, there is no-one to force the contractor to re-do shoddy work that would be apparent to someone with knowledge of what's acceptable versus the homeowner who wouldn't necessarily know (and wouldn't find out until a problem presented itself) sans suing them and going to court... the homeowner, who doesn't know better, would have already paid the contractor sans inspections, and now will not only be chasing him in court because they lost that leverage (i.e. - paying without inspection) but in the interim have to fix the problem at additional cost...

The recourse as it stood before, allowed you to refuse payment if it didn't pass inspection and could withhold payment until it did...

Your average homeowner has no idea what is acceptable industry practice and/or will pass inspection for any given project in an AHJ... one of the reasons why permitting/inspections exists... A permit allows for third party confirmation by someone outside the transaction that work conforms to the standards/practices of the AHJ...

Will be interesting to see how this translates when it comes time to sell the home... I've also got to imagine with the "storm roof" replacements, this will get the attention of the insurance companies, for both the homeowner and businesses and they're going to want to shield themselves from potential losses through increased rates...
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Old 03-07-2018, 03:14 PM   #22
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Re: No More Permits


Where I live you don't need a license or permit to do roofing. Somehow not the Wild West of roofing hacks. Decks you need a footing inspection.


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Old 03-07-2018, 03:24 PM   #23
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Re: No More Permits


Man there's just a whole lot of people in this industry don't know WTF they are talking about.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_code
"The main purpose of building codes is to protect public health, safety and general welfare as they relate to the construction and occupancy of buildings and structures."

State of Michigan:
"The Building Code
The purpose of the building code is to insure public safety, health and welfare insofar as they are affected by building construction, through structural strength, adequate egress facilities, sanitary equipment, light and ventilation, and fire safety; and, in general, to secure safety to life and property from all hazards incident to the design, erection, repair, removal, demolition or use and occupancy of buildings, structures or premises."

The building department don't give a **** about warranty, or what a homeowner knows, or quality work, or legal recourse, or whether the trade is licensed or insured.

That is NOT their job. Never has been.

Here in Oxford, a roofing permit is like 50 bucks, a re-inspection fee is 25 bucks and that's what the inspector gets - they are not on salary.
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Old 03-07-2018, 03:53 PM   #24
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Re: No More Permits


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Man there's just a whole lot of people in this industry don't know WTF they are talking about.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_code
"The main purpose of building codes is to protect public health, safety and general welfare as they relate to the construction and occupancy of buildings and structures."

State of Michigan:
"The Building Code
The purpose of the building code is to insure public safety, health and welfare insofar as they are affected by building construction, through structural strength, adequate egress facilities, sanitary equipment, light and ventilation, and fire safety; and, in general, to secure safety to life and property from all hazards incident to the design, erection, repair, removal, demolition or use and occupancy of buildings, structures or premises."

The building department don't give a **** about warranty, or what a homeowner knows, or quality work, or legal recourse, or whether the trade is licensed or insured.

That is NOT their job. Never has been.

Here in Oxford, a roofing permit is like 50 bucks, a re-inspection fee is 25 bucks and that's what the inspector gets - they are not on salary.
You are wrong in NJ and what Tom is talking about is the big issue. In NJ you can not get a permit without a Home Improvement registration, that registration proves you have insurance. Our permits are much higher than yours, smallest being 75 and get higher quickly.
Sometimes contractors will tell the HO to pull permit and the BO would tell them that by doing that may let the contractor off the hook for deficiencies. but they would rarely deny the permit.
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Old 03-07-2018, 04:02 PM   #25
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Re: No More Permits


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You are wrong in NJ and what Tom is talking about is the big issue. In NJ you can not get a permit without a Home Improvement registration, that registration proves you have insurance. Our permits are much higher than yours, smallest being 75 and get higher quickly.
Sometimes contractors will tell the HO to pull permit and the BO would tell them that by doing that may let the contractor off the hook for deficiencies. but they would rarely deny the permit.
I referred to Michigan, because I do not know anything about any other state.

And yes I know/understand the point about the HO pulling the permit.

But THAT is 1/2 my point. The point is an unlicensed, unskilled homeowner can pull the permit. The other part is the building dept i not a nanny for the homeowner.

And a HO can pull permi, because the state cannot/will not care about what the HO has to deal with. Their only legal obligation, and only right they can exercise is for the public safety.
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Old 03-07-2018, 04:10 PM   #26
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Re: No More Permits


To Ensure public safety. That's why owners need to get inspected for work they do. The property is insured and usually bank owned. Can't have people buying houses that former owners rigged up.

I don't know where the lines are drawn. As stated they don't babysit start to finish and who is to say a hand rail violation is more dangerous than say...safety glass in a bath. They all have value.
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Old 03-07-2018, 04:13 PM   #27
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Re: No More Permits


At least when the HO pulls the permit the inspector goes there. Or it's left as an open ticket and will expire eventually. Making you get a new permit at full price all over again.

At least here anyway.
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Old 03-07-2018, 04:17 PM   #28
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Re: No More Permits


Think of the money the Craigslist crews will be saving.
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Old 03-07-2018, 04:29 PM   #29
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Re: No More Permits


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To Ensure public safety. That's why owners need to get inspected for work they do. The property is insured and usually bank owned. Can't have people buying houses that former owners rigged up.

I don't know where the lines are drawn. As stated they don't babysit start to finish and who is to say a hand rail violation is more dangerous than say...safety glass in a bath. They all have value.
yup.

Look, I'm not for or agin it. I'm saying, that as Rob pointed out there is no legal responsibility on the part of the building department for work that gets past them.

The roofing permit is a good example for me. Here - 50 bucks to pull. North of me 20 miles is a little burg called Elba. No permit required.

Down south of me in Bloomfield Hills, they do not allow re-roofs, the fee is like 250 bucks, and those guys get on the roof and use a magnifying glass.

And I would wager the most illegal re-roofs are done in Bloomfield Hills.

The very best thing a homeowner can do to protect themselves is hire a contractor based on word-of-mouth recommendation, and stop relying on the "state" to be their nanny.

And of course, noone will do THAT.
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Old 03-07-2018, 04:32 PM   #30
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Re: No More Permits


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Originally Posted by KAP View Post
If there is no permitting/inspection of a roof, for example, there is no-one to force the contractor to re-do shoddy work that would be apparent to someone with knowledge of what's acceptable versus the homeowner who wouldn't necessarily know (and wouldn't find out until a problem presented itself) sans suing them and going to court... the homeowner, who doesn't know better, would have already paid the contractor sans inspections, and now will not only be chasing him in court because they lost that leverage (i.e. - paying without inspection) but in the interim have to fix the problem at additional cost...

The recourse as it stood before, allowed you to refuse payment if it didn't pass inspection and could withhold payment until it did...

Your average homeowner has no idea what is acceptable industry practice and/or will pass inspection for any given project in an AHJ... one of the reasons why permitting/inspections exists... A permit allows for third party confirmation by someone outside the transaction that work conforms to the standards/practices of the AHJ...

Will be interesting to see how this translates when it comes time to sell the home... I've also got to imagine with the "storm roof" replacements, this will get the attention of the insurance companies, for both the homeowner and businesses and they're going to want to shield themselves from potential losses through increased rates...
What work would this inspector catch? They don't get up on it. They do a drive by. You are lucky if they actually get out and walk around the entire house. Most don't allow them to get on the roof for insurance reasons.

Like I said, there is no guarantee the inspector is ensuring that standards are met. Not to mention the inspector has nothing to lose, other than his job, by getting it wrong. It's a false sense of security. Inspected buildings and projects fail all of the time.

Seeing that there are a lot of places that don't require a roofing permit and have no issues at the time of sale, I could see it only being a temporary problem.

I don't buy in this day and age of instant information that a consumer couldn't educate themselves enough on what they need to see on the installation of their roof. We have to stop relying on the gov't to regulate and educate.
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Old 03-07-2018, 04:34 PM   #31
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Re: No More Permits


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I referred to Michigan, because I do not know anything about any other state.

And yes I know/understand the point about the HO pulling the permit.

But THAT is 1/2 my point. The point is an unlicensed, unskilled homeowner can pull the permit. The other part is the building dept i not a nanny for the homeowner.

And a HO can pull permi, because the state cannot/will not care about what the HO has to deal with. Their only legal obligation, and only right they can exercise is for the public safety.
But does an inspector have the LEGAL obligation to get it right? Since they are held blameless I find that hard to believe.
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Old 03-07-2018, 04:34 PM   #32
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Re: No More Permits


Interesting thread. A lot of good points/arguments.

To counter holding the municipality/inspector liable for the performance of any projects: Are you willing to pay the difference in permit fees it would cost for me to be there the WHOLE time the job is going on? Because that's the only way I'm willing to accept any liability for myself or the City I work for.

You can already sue an inspector, and win, if he is intentionally negligent. How much more liability do you want him and/or your town to have?
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Old 03-07-2018, 04:39 PM   #33
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Re: No More Permits


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Interesting thread. A lot of good points/arguments.

To counter holding the municipality/inspector liable for the performance of any projects: Are you willing to pay the difference in permit fees it would cost for me to be there the WHOLE time the job is going on? Because that's the only way I'm willing to accept any liability for myself or the City I work for.

You can already sue an inspector, and win, if he is intentionally negligent. How much more liability do you want him and/or your town to have?
Intentionally is the key word. Very hard to prove intentions in court.

Most of what is inspected doesn't require one to be there 100% of the time. That's why they have purple primer. What would you need to be there for? That's the purpose of inspecting rough and finish. You inspect, and document the inspection. If something was altered after the inspection that isn't on you. If it's not, you share in the blame.

But to answer your question, no I wouldn't want to pay for that. I don't want to pay for it now as most of the time it's a joke.
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Old 03-07-2018, 04:45 PM   #34
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Re: No More Permits


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But does an inspector have the LEGAL obligation to get it right? Since they are held blameless I find that hard to believe.
Good question.
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Old 03-07-2018, 05:02 PM   #35
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Re: No More Permits


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But does an inspector have the LEGAL obligation to get it right? Since they are held blameless I find that hard to believe.
In NJ the answer is no
2 examples
1- plans approved for home with 5 chimneys, house is finished and all finals are done. Neighbor questions height of chimneys, Homeowner has to get them measured -too tall but built to plans approved by town
Town say chimneys have to be lowered and says they are sorry
Homeowner tried to sue town, no dice. Chimneys get lowered

2- house is built according to plans, inspector does not see that point load was not over foundation wall as indicated on the plans but 3 ft from it. Rear of house is falling away from the rest of the house 2" gap where roof meets wall and can see daylight through the roof. Building inspector notes issue and says "sorry" and tells the HO he is lucky he does not condemn the house. HO sues town and builder who is now out of business, no dice town is held harmless
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Old 03-07-2018, 05:04 PM   #36
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Re: No More Permits


I don't know where I'm going with this, but anyways:

All during the heyday of the last building boom, in THIS town, the town had a head guy and his right-hand gal.

Under him were individual inspectors for plumbing, electrical, HVAC and building envelope.

That last was done by my neighbor and friend who is 10 years my senior and a well-respected architect. And he is ethical.

So, the crunch hits, and THIS community lets the head guy & right hand person go.

They both move up the road to a city which is the county seat of the next county.

After a couple years, it becomes apparent to the city fathers that something ain't quite right - and by that I mean - these two were let go without explanation. BOOM - they were gone.

So next the town fathers hire a younger guy from a neighboring town on a week-to-week basis.

That goes on for a couple of years. This guy goes after the slum lords, and the commercial buildings that are way outside law for past work done, etc.

Late this past fall, the city held a closed door meeting, followed by an open door meeting where they FINALLY considered giving this guy a contract.

I wrote, my friend wrote, & two others wrote performance reviews. And the guy got a 2 year contract.

See, the city WANTS to do good, but there really isn't a heck of a lot they can do with incompetence - so they are skittish.

Corruption they can go after.

A bureaucracy is by definition, all farked up.

But its better (slightly) than the Wild West.
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Old 03-07-2018, 05:13 PM   #37
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Re: No More Permits


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Interesting thread. A lot of good points/arguments.

To counter holding the municipality/inspector liable for the performance of any projects: Are you willing to pay the difference in permit fees it would cost for me to be there the WHOLE time the job is going on? Because that's the only way I'm willing to accept any liability for myself or the City I work for.

You can already sue an inspector, and win, if he is intentionally negligent. How much more liability do you want him and/or your town to have?
And I appreciate that.

Here is MY counter: The homeowner/home buyer accepts responsibility for, and takes action to use, a contractor with a proven track record of delivering a quality product, all the time, every time.
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Old 03-07-2018, 05:26 PM   #38
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Re: No More Permits


I've had a customer where they bought a house and the town made them tear out a finishing basement Becca of no permits.
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Old 03-07-2018, 06:04 PM   #39
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Re: No More Permits


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What work would this inspector catch? They don't get up on it. They do a drive by. You are lucky if they actually get out and walk around the entire house. Most don't allow them to get on the roof for insurance reasons.
2 versus 3 layers, flashing, peaks/valleys, missing drip edge, uniformity, proper shingle alignment, etc. most generally visible from the road... there are other issues, but requires a more diligent inspection...



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Like I said, there is no guarantee the inspector is ensuring that standards are met. Not to mention the inspector has nothing to lose, other than his job, by getting it wrong. It's a false sense of security. Inspected buildings and projects fail all of the time.
If that's truly the case, are you saying we shouldn't have any inspections?

While I'm not a big fan or bureaucracy, in combination with the private sector, it has lead to increases in best practices...


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Seeing that there are a lot of places that don't require a roofing permit and have no issues at the time of sale, I could see it only being a temporary problem.

I don't buy in this day and age of instant information that a consumer couldn't educate themselves enough on what they need to see on the installation of their roof. We have to stop relying on the gov't to regulate and educate.
Well I guess they could rely on YouTube...


Maybe the answer lies in outside certified inspections that have liability attached, like house inspectors do... get the government out of it altogether...
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Old 03-07-2018, 07:06 PM   #40
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2 versus 3 layers, flashing, peaks/valleys, missing drip edge, uniformity, proper shingle alignment, etc. most generally visible from the road... there are other issues, but requires a more diligent inspection...





If that's truly the case, are you saying we shouldn't have any inspections?

While I'm not a big fan or bureaucracy, in combination with the private sector, it has lead to increases in best practices...




Well I guess they could rely on YouTube...


Maybe the answer lies in outside certified inspections that have liability attached, like house inspectors do... get the government out of it altogether...
The only liability home inspectors have is the fee they charge, if they make a mistake no big deal most contracts limit their liability to the fees they charged. Happened 2 yers ago to a customer of mine.

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