New Flat Roof "ponding"

medusa · 12-13-2005, 11:18 AM

Had a new CertainTeed roof installed on 20' X 22' "flat roof" (1/4"/ftslope) and have "ponding", or what I call a lake, the "pond" is about 12' in diameter.
Roofer claims it's not his problem due to 48hour rule, (if it evporates in 48 hours it's acceptable), I say no way, that means I'll have standing water on my roof most of the winter, even in california, I say standard construction practice, roofer should have checked "flat roof" for problems in between stripping and installing new roof system, pulled a string at least. Been fighting for 9 months now, any suggestions?

Scottsdale · 12-13-2005, 02:07 PM

In California there must be a modified system put down first, before the shingles on anything below a 2/12. This means that you would have two roofs. The modified below and the shingles above. Did this happen? Although its no concession for your puddles it may ease your worrying about them.

medusa · 12-13-2005, 04:17 PM

Grumpy,
I've already paid him, the day after he completed the roof, BTW the roof leaked the next day so he put homeowners "stop leak" on all the seams.
No, I would not have argued with him had he looked for and/or found problems, fact is the original roof price was $1000.00 less than the total, I paid extra $1000.00 for three separate change orders.
Had he looked for and found that the roof would pond, I would have paid extra for another change order to avoid the ponding. My point is he did not even check, yet as a "professionsl" removing/replacing a "flat roof", why wouldn't a Professional Contractor check? What is the defination of a "pond", certainly not something that covers half my roof?
The 48 hour rule seems odd to me; are the 48 hours during the winter when the pond is frozen, or are the 48 hours during 100 degree summer weather with a 40 MPH wind? With out qualification of the "48 hour rule", it seems usless and vague.
Scottsdale, the CertainTeed system is indeed a 2 or 3 ply system. BTW, CertainTeed representive stated: "any ponding and the 15 year warrenty is void".

AaronB. · 12-13-2005, 09:27 PM

Can you post a pic?

medusa · 12-14-2005, 10:02 AM

Here's picture.

Grumpy, This was (SA) Finlastic roofing material.

There was NO pond prior to roofer doing work, it was old tar/gravel, maybe it was built up in the pond area, maybe the overlap of the seams in the new roof are part of the ponding problem, maybe the built up around the drains are part of the problem, but whatever, there was no pond prior to the roofer doing his work, he has even put in writing: "There was no pond when we showed up". True, so why is there now?

Nice story, how about a couple of anologys:

1. I have an old car painted, after the job is done, painter tells me about rust, or we discover rust, shouldn't painter look for rust prior to painting? Isn't that part of his job?

2. Carpenter replaces front door, he notices dryrot, but does not tell me till after trim is up and painted, shouldn't he tell me when/if he finds dryrot? Isn't that part of his job?

3. Plumber replaces toilet, drain/waste line has leak, shouln't he at least look at whatever he is attaching new toilet to prior to completing installation? Isn't that part of his job?

I'm just saying: Standard of Workmanship, Quality of Workmanship

It's a flat roof, we all know flat roofs can have problems, so why wouldn't a "Professional Roofer" check for proper slope/drainage? How much time/effort would it take to pull a string, lay down a level? Or is is better to wait till after the job is done so the roofer can charge more to make repairs to an newly installed roof, rather than make repairs prior to installing new roof?

red_cedar · 12-14-2005, 11:09 AM

Did the roof leak in the ponded areas? Perhaps the pond was there before, maybe the gravel was hiding it some.

The roofer should come back and address your concerns and the facts. Also, ponding water is a lot of times the cause for roofing system failures and should be addressed when reroofing. Though usually the main thought is to replace the system.
IMO

medusa · 12-14-2005, 11:52 AM

Yes, the roof leaked in the ponding area, four different places.
(Maybe the gravel was hiding the pond,) maybe so, but when the workers removed the old roof, wouldn't/shouldn't they notice deeper gravel, and or deeper tar?
Estimator came out looked at the pond and leaks/dripping water in the house, said they could come back in two days to make repairs, (it was raining as we were talking on the sidewalk) I insisted that they make repairs that day, or I would call/hire other roofer to make repairs and send them the bill. They finally sent out workers, swept water off roof, brushed on Home Depot "wetpatch", in I guess areas where they though the leaks might be. Two hours later, roof was leaking again, they came back, swept off roof/water and put more "wetpatch"on all the seams that were under water.

I've reshearched CertainTeed Finlastic (SA) further, and now realize:
1. They stored material they delivered incorrectly, should have been stored above 50 degrees inside or on a pallet,(46 degrees that night) it was placed overnight on concrete.
2. Did not "stop immediatly" (per mfg installation manual) if seams weren't sealing.
3. Did not roll down seams.
4. Did not cut 45' angles to avoid "T" intersections per mfg recommendations.
5. Did not install flashing at vertical tie in under stucco, just placed on top of stucco.
6. Used wrong shaped metal cap, (bottom does not flare out) and wrong gage (26 gage recommended my mfg.)
7. Did not put cant strip behind vertical tie in.
8 Reduced size of drains, when asked to actually enlarge them.
9. Only intended to make one foot tie in to sloped shingle roof, when mfg requires 18" minimum, (I paid extra to get more than one foot tie in as that seemed like not enough at the time, I now realize from reshearching mfg site that roofer should not have charged me)

This is a medium to large roofing company, (office staff of 6 people)been in business many years.

AaronB. · 12-14-2005, 04:35 PM

Biggest problem I see is he used SA products. I do not trust SA products.

As far as what should he have done, would it have been resonable for them to come up with a roof framing plan, contact you, de-frame, re-frame, and install the roofing system by the end of the workday? If it is, then your case is perfectly viable. This way, he fulfilled his contract to replace the roofing system, not re-frame the roof structure.

red_cedar · 12-14-2005, 05:30 PM

I believe a good part of the problem with the ponding, is the granulated product on that low of a pitch. Surface tension with the water is almost nonexistant there. The installation is another story.
As far as how things should have been, well, what can you do, Just focus on correcting the situation.
Often times with installing products outside the ideal temperature or situation does not happen when you need it to happen.
Perhaps if your roofer waited for 51 degrees it would be 3 weeks from now.

medusa · 12-14-2005, 05:33 PM

I orginally ask for a 4' wide repair to the tie-in between the flat roof and the sloped(shingle) roof, I got one other estimate for that.
This roofer's estimator suggested that they could do the entire flat roof, including the repair for "not much more". I asked for a price for both, he only gave me a price for the entire roof, with two options, a 12 year and a 15 year warrenty of Certanteed material, I went with the 15 year.

As far as what should he have done...it was not a one day job, I would not ask a roofer to come up with a roof framing plan, contact me(I was available by cell phone), de-frame, re-frame and install the roofing system by the end of the day. I only would expect a Professional Roofer to check to insure that the deck, that he was about to install a new roofing system to, did not have humps or swales in it.
Had he checked, notified me, I would have contacted a General contractor to make framing modifications, if necessary, I would not have asked a roofer to do framing, nor would I ask a electrician to install a toilet.

In fact the NRCA states: directly copied from NRCA website:

Under Reroofing guidelines:

When specifying a replacement or re-cover roof system, one goal is to meet or exceed the building owner’s desire for service life of the new roof system. NRCA lists five criteria of particular importance to achieve maximum service life” eliminate or minimize ponding; limit and properly flash penetrations....

(Bold highlights are mine)

The most important four words: “eliminate or minimize ponding”,.

This contractor did not even try to eliminate or minimize ponding, heck, he didn't even check to see if there might be ponding.

AaronB. · 12-14-2005, 08:44 PM

Illegal Torch moves me to BUR or Epdm or SPF, but definitely not to SA. It all comes down to the contract. Did he do everything as he stated and you two agreed to?

Grumpy · 12-15-2005, 11:35 AM

Aaron, I use SA when I have tie ins with shingles or an up against vinyl siding, and I have had good results so far. I have my fingers crossed since I have only been doing it for a couple years... I am eager and optimistic that the long term results are not catastrophic.

AaronB. · 12-16-2005, 08:22 AM

I hope it works out for you. I hope my forseen catastrophes never come to pass.

medusa · 12-16-2005, 01:51 PM

"eliminate or minimize ponding"?

Now why would the contract say that, there was no evidence of any ponding before he started?

And if a roofer where to put that in a contract, than I would ask: "So, are you expecting a ponding problem?"

Some things cannot be forseen, but need/should be looked for during the process, that's what change orders are for. He issued a change order for and charged me for 32L.F. of 2" x 8" T&G decking replacement, yet he only replaced 20L.F. of 2" X 6" T&G .

It all comes down to quality of work/workmanship, the contract does not say a whole lot of things: ie: how much to lap edge metal. So since he only lapped the edge metal 2" or 2-1/2" when the CertainTeed Finlastic Instalation Manual clearly states "metal edge must be overlapped 4" minimum", the contractor is off the hook cause it's not specifically spelled out in the contract? I don't think so.

I could go on with other things the contract does or does not state, but that is not the point, untill the old roofing material was removed, neither he nor I could/would know anything about any drainage/ponding problem. That was when, as a Professional Roofer, he needed to check what the NRCA tells him to check for and what the NRCA as lists five criteria of particular importance to achieve maximum service life...eliminate or minimize ponding....

Just received notice, the Contractor State License Board is taking this to arbritration, so they must think I have a valid argument.

AaronB. · 12-16-2005, 05:33 PM

Because a state license board takes someone to arbitration means squat.

If he would have come back to you and said "We have to re-frame your roof" what would the answer have been? If he said "A tapered system is going to cost you about another 2 thousand" what would the response have been? I bet you would have tried to make him do it for free, stating he should have known there would be ponding water.

Tom R · 12-16-2005, 05:59 PM

Welp, - - although I'm a remodeler and not a roofer by trade, - - I gotta agree with Medusa on this one, - - let's face it the facts here, - - if a customer knew before-hand they were gonna pay for a roof that was going to 'pond', - - they simply wouldn't get it done (at this price, by this contractor), - - the customer is relying on the expertise of the contractor to get a proper job, - - or at least be forewarned of any potential problems with the proposed work.

Tom R · 12-16-2005, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by medusa

Here's picture.

Grumpy, This was (SA) Finlastic roofing material.

There was NO pond prior to roofer doing work, it was old tar/gravel, maybe it was built up in the pond area, maybe the overlap of the seams in the new roof are part of the ponding problem, maybe the built up around the drains are part of the problem, but whatever, there was no pond prior to the roofer doing his work, he has even put in writing: "There was no pond when we showed up". True, so why is there now?

Nice story, how about a couple of anologys:

1. I have an old car painted, after the job is done, painter tells me about rust, or we discover rust, shouldn't painter look for rust prior to painting? Isn't that part of his job?

2. Carpenter replaces front door, he notices dryrot, but does not tell me till after trim is up and painted, shouldn't he tell me when/if he finds dryrot? Isn't that part of his job?

3. Plumber replaces toilet, drain/waste line has leak, shouln't he at least look at whatever he is attaching new toilet to prior to completing installation? Isn't that part of his job?

I'm just saying: Standard of Workmanship, Quality of Workmanship

It's a flat roof, we all know flat roofs can have problems, so why wouldn't a "Professional Roofer" check for proper slope/drainage? How much time/effort would it take to pull a string, lay down a level? Or is is better to wait till after the job is done so the roofer can charge more to make repairs to an newly installed roof, rather than make repairs prior to installing new roof?

This post pretty much says it all.

Any argument to it is basically a dis-credit to oneself.

Just my opinion, - - read it and weep!!

Mike Finley · 12-16-2005, 07:25 PM

Damn, it's a sad day when I have to totally agree with you.

This seems to be one of those issues where technically the roofer might be able to get away with this, but if we just stop all the B.S. and just think about this using common sense, this situation makes no sense, 48 hour rule or not. As Tom said, what customer in their right mind knowingly would sign a contract for a roof job knowing that it would pool for even 2 hours? It just seems like common sense that you want water to run of a roof, not collect there, collecting is just asking for trouble if not today, then some other day.

Tom R · 12-16-2005, 07:40 PM

Call me a perfectionist, - - .25"/ft is not flat, - - it's .25"/ft for a reason.

If you took your same theory to plumbing none of your drains would drain.

Would it be OK for your plumber to tell you "it's a 'catch-22', live with it"??

And if your plumber told you "it happens all the time", - - would you feel any better about it??

What allows a roofer's .25"/ft to be any less than a plumber's .25"/ft??

If ponding was so acceptable why would .25"/ft even enter the equation??

Tom R · 12-16-2005, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy

On a totally unrelated subject next year 2006 I am going to do some advertising of... "Flat roof Puddles fixed GUARANTEED"

Ive devised an affordable and practicle method to fix puddles in flat roofing as a repair rather than a major repalcement which would require fixing of the underlying framing.

Great idea, - - always good to see aptitude over-ride attitude.

12-13-2005, 11:18 AM	#1
medusa View Profile medusa Member Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (42) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Member Trade: retired civil Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 42	New Flat Roof "ponding" Had a new CertainTeed roof installed on 20' X 22' "flat roof" (1/4"/ftslope) and have "ponding", or what I call a lake, the "pond" is about 12' in diameter. Roofer claims it's not his problem due to 48hour rule, (if it evporates in 48 hours it's acceptable), I say no way, that means I'll have standing water on my roof most of the winter, even in california, I say standard construction practice, roofer should have checked "flat roof" for problems in between stripping and installing new roof system, pulled a string at least. Been fighting for 9 months now, any suggestions?

12-13-2005, 02:07 PM	#2
Scottsdale View Profile Scottsdale Member Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (42) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Member Trade: Roofing Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 42	Re: New Flat Roof "ponding" In California there must be a modified system put down first, before the shingles on anything below a 2/12. This means that you would have two roofs. The modified below and the shingles above. Did this happen? Although its no concession for your puddles it may ease your worrying about them.

12-13-2005, 04:17 PM	#3
medusa View Profile medusa Member Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (42) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Member Trade: retired civil Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 42	Re: New Flat Roof "ponding" Grumpy, I've already paid him, the day after he completed the roof, BTW the roof leaked the next day so he put homeowners "stop leak" on all the seams. No, I would not have argued with him had he looked for and/or found problems, fact is the original roof price was $1000.00 less than the total, I paid extra $1000.00 for three separate change orders. Had he looked for and found that the roof would pond, I would have paid extra for another change order to avoid the ponding. My point is he did not even check, yet as a "professionsl" removing/replacing a "flat roof", why wouldn't a Professional Contractor check? What is the defination of a "pond", certainly not something that covers half my roof? The 48 hour rule seems odd to me; are the 48 hours during the winter when the pond is frozen, or are the 48 hours during 100 degree summer weather with a 40 MPH wind? With out qualification of the "48 hour rule", it seems usless and vague. Scottsdale, the CertainTeed system is indeed a 2 or 3 ply system. BTW, CertainTeed representive stated: "any ponding and the 15 year warrenty is void". Last edited by medusa; 12-13-2005 at 04:19 PM.

12-13-2005, 09:27 PM	#4
AaronB. View Profile AaronB. Commercial Roofing Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,220) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Commercial Roofing Trade: Roofing Contractor Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Illinois IL Posts: 1,220	Re: New Flat Roof "ponding" Can you post a pic? __________________ http://www.roseroofing.net/ Seamless Industrial and Commercial Roofing Systems, Residential Repair. For Those That Demand Quality! Free roof inspections within 12 miles of our locale.

12-14-2005, 10:02 AM	#5
medusa View Profile medusa Member Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (42) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Member Trade: retired civil Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 42	Re: New Flat Roof "ponding" Here's picture. Grumpy, This was (SA) Finlastic roofing material. There was NO pond prior to roofer doing work, it was old tar/gravel, maybe it was built up in the pond area, maybe the overlap of the seams in the new roof are part of the ponding problem, maybe the built up around the drains are part of the problem, but whatever, there was no pond prior to the roofer doing his work, he has even put in writing: "There was no pond when we showed up". True, so why is there now? Nice story, how about a couple of anologys: 1. I have an old car painted, after the job is done, painter tells me about rust, or we discover rust, shouldn't painter look for rust prior to painting? Isn't that part of his job? 2. Carpenter replaces front door, he notices dryrot, but does not tell me till after trim is up and painted, shouldn't he tell me when/if he finds dryrot? Isn't that part of his job? 3. Plumber replaces toilet, drain/waste line has leak, shouln't he at least look at whatever he is attaching new toilet to prior to completing installation? Isn't that part of his job? I'm just saying: Standard of Workmanship, Quality of Workmanship It's a flat roof, we all know flat roofs can have problems, so why wouldn't a "Professional Roofer" check for proper slope/drainage? How much time/effort would it take to pull a string, lay down a level? Or is is better to wait till after the job is done so the roofer can charge more to make repairs to an newly installed roof, rather than make repairs prior to installing new roof? Attached Images

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12-14-2005, 11:09 AM	#6
red_cedar View Profile red_cedar Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (640) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 640	Re: New Flat Roof "ponding" Did the roof leak in the ponded areas? Perhaps the pond was there before, maybe the gravel was hiding it some. The roofer should come back and address your concerns and the facts. Also, ponding water is a lot of times the cause for roofing system failures and should be addressed when reroofing. Though usually the main thought is to replace the system. IMO Last edited by red_cedar; 12-14-2005 at 11:30 AM.

12-14-2005, 11:52 AM	#7
medusa View Profile medusa Member Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (42) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Member Trade: retired civil Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 42	Re: New Flat Roof "ponding" Yes, the roof leaked in the ponding area, four different places. (Maybe the gravel was hiding the pond,) maybe so, but when the workers removed the old roof, wouldn't/shouldn't they notice deeper gravel, and or deeper tar? Estimator came out looked at the pond and leaks/dripping water in the house, said they could come back in two days to make repairs, (it was raining as we were talking on the sidewalk) I insisted that they make repairs that day, or I would call/hire other roofer to make repairs and send them the bill. They finally sent out workers, swept water off roof, brushed on Home Depot "wetpatch", in I guess areas where they though the leaks might be. Two hours later, roof was leaking again, they came back, swept off roof/water and put more "wetpatch"on all the seams that were under water. I've reshearched CertainTeed Finlastic (SA) further, and now realize: 1. They stored material they delivered incorrectly, should have been stored above 50 degrees inside or on a pallet,(46 degrees that night) it was placed overnight on concrete. 2. Did not "stop immediatly" (per mfg installation manual) if seams weren't sealing. 3. Did not roll down seams. 4. Did not cut 45' angles to avoid "T" intersections per mfg recommendations. 5. Did not install flashing at vertical tie in under stucco, just placed on top of stucco. 6. Used wrong shaped metal cap, (bottom does not flare out) and wrong gage (26 gage recommended my mfg.) 7. Did not put cant strip behind vertical tie in. 8 Reduced size of drains, when asked to actually enlarge them. 9. Only intended to make one foot tie in to sloped shingle roof, when mfg requires 18" minimum, (I paid extra to get more than one foot tie in as that seemed like not enough at the time, I now realize from reshearching mfg site that roofer should not have charged me) This is a medium to large roofing company, (office staff of 6 people)been in business many years. Last edited by medusa; 12-14-2005 at 11:54 AM.

12-14-2005, 04:35 PM	#8
AaronB. View Profile AaronB. Commercial Roofing Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,220) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Commercial Roofing Trade: Roofing Contractor Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Illinois IL Posts: 1,220	Re: New Flat Roof "ponding" Biggest problem I see is he used SA products. I do not trust SA products. As far as what should he have done, would it have been resonable for them to come up with a roof framing plan, contact you, de-frame, re-frame, and install the roofing system by the end of the workday? If it is, then your case is perfectly viable. This way, he fulfilled his contract to replace the roofing system, not re-frame the roof structure. __________________ http://www.roseroofing.net/ Seamless Industrial and Commercial Roofing Systems, Residential Repair. For Those That Demand Quality! Free roof inspections within 12 miles of our locale.

12-14-2005, 05:30 PM	#9
red_cedar View Profile red_cedar Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (640) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 640	Re: New Flat Roof "ponding" I believe a good part of the problem with the ponding, is the granulated product on that low of a pitch. Surface tension with the water is almost nonexistant there. The installation is another story. As far as how things should have been, well, what can you do, Just focus on correcting the situation. Often times with installing products outside the ideal temperature or situation does not happen when you need it to happen. Perhaps if your roofer waited for 51 degrees it would be 3 weeks from now.

12-14-2005, 05:33 PM	#10
medusa View Profile medusa Member Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (42) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Member Trade: retired civil Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 42	Re: New Flat Roof "ponding" I orginally ask for a 4' wide repair to the tie-in between the flat roof and the sloped(shingle) roof, I got one other estimate for that. This roofer's estimator suggested that they could do the entire flat roof, including the repair for "not much more". I asked for a price for both, he only gave me a price for the entire roof, with two options, a 12 year and a 15 year warrenty of Certanteed material, I went with the 15 year. As far as what should he have done...it was not a one day job, I would not ask a roofer to come up with a roof framing plan, contact me(I was available by cell phone), de-frame, re-frame and install the roofing system by the end of the day. I only would expect a Professional Roofer to check to insure that the deck, that he was about to install a new roofing system to, did not have humps or swales in it. Had he checked, notified me, I would have contacted a General contractor to make framing modifications, if necessary, I would not have asked a roofer to do framing, nor would I ask a electrician to install a toilet. In fact the NRCA states: directly copied from NRCA website: Under Reroofing guidelines: When specifying a replacement or re-cover roof system, one goal is to meet or exceed the building owner’s desire for service life of the new roof system. NRCA lists five criteria of particular importance to achieve maximum service life” eliminate or minimize ponding; limit and properly flash penetrations.... (Bold highlights are mine) The most important four words: “eliminate or minimize ponding”,. This contractor did not even try to eliminate or minimize ponding, heck, he didn't even check to see if there might be ponding. Last edited by medusa; 12-14-2005 at 05:36 PM.

12-14-2005, 08:44 PM	#11
AaronB. View Profile AaronB. Commercial Roofing Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,220) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Commercial Roofing Trade: Roofing Contractor Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Illinois IL Posts: 1,220	Re: New Flat Roof "ponding" Illegal Torch moves me to BUR or Epdm or SPF, but definitely not to SA. It all comes down to the contract. Did he do everything as he stated and you two agreed to? __________________ http://www.roseroofing.net/ Seamless Industrial and Commercial Roofing Systems, Residential Repair. For Those That Demand Quality! Free roof inspections within 12 miles of our locale.

12-15-2005, 11:35 AM	#12
Grumpy View Profile Grumpy Bah Humbug! Send Message Follow Blogs (17) Threads (8,574) Photos (0) Reviews (49) Projects (12) Toolbox (43) View All Activity Bah Humbug! Trade: Roofing and Gutter Specialist Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 8,574	Re: New Flat Roof "ponding" Aaron, I use SA when I have tie ins with shingles or an up against vinyl siding, and I have had good results so far. I have my fingers crossed since I have only been doing it for a couple years... I am eager and optimistic that the long term results are not catastrophic.

12-16-2005, 08:22 AM	#13
AaronB. View Profile AaronB. Commercial Roofing Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,220) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Commercial Roofing Trade: Roofing Contractor Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Illinois IL Posts: 1,220	Re: New Flat Roof "ponding" I hope it works out for you. I hope my forseen catastrophes never come to pass. __________________ http://www.roseroofing.net/ Seamless Industrial and Commercial Roofing Systems, Residential Repair. For Those That Demand Quality! Free roof inspections within 12 miles of our locale.

12-16-2005, 01:51 PM	#14
medusa View Profile medusa Member Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (42) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Member Trade: retired civil Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 42	Re: New Flat Roof "ponding" "eliminate or minimize ponding"? Now why would the contract say that, there was no evidence of any ponding before he started? And if a roofer where to put that in a contract, than I would ask: "So, are you expecting a ponding problem?" Some things cannot be forseen, but need/should be looked for during the process, that's what change orders are for. He issued a change order for and charged me for 32L.F. of 2" x 8" T&G decking replacement, yet he only replaced 20L.F. of 2" X 6" T&G . It all comes down to quality of work/workmanship, the contract does not say a whole lot of things: ie: how much to lap edge metal. So since he only lapped the edge metal 2" or 2-1/2" when the CertainTeed Finlastic Instalation Manual clearly states "metal edge must be overlapped 4" minimum", the contractor is off the hook cause it's not specifically spelled out in the contract? I don't think so. I could go on with other things the contract does or does not state, but that is not the point, untill the old roofing material was removed, neither he nor I could/would know anything about any drainage/ponding problem. That was when, as a Professional Roofer, he needed to check what the NRCA tells him to check for and what the NRCA as lists five criteria of particular importance to achieve maximum service life...eliminate or minimize ponding.... Just received notice, the Contractor State License Board is taking this to arbritration, so they must think I have a valid argument.

12-16-2005, 05:33 PM	#15
AaronB. View Profile AaronB. Commercial Roofing Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,220) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Commercial Roofing Trade: Roofing Contractor Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Illinois IL Posts: 1,220	Re: New Flat Roof "ponding" Because a state license board takes someone to arbitration means squat. If he would have come back to you and said "We have to re-frame your roof" what would the answer have been? If he said "A tapered system is going to cost you about another 2 thousand" what would the response have been? I bet you would have tried to make him do it for free, stating he should have known there would be ponding water. __________________ http://www.roseroofing.net/ Seamless Industrial and Commercial Roofing Systems, Residential Repair. For Those That Demand Quality! Free roof inspections within 12 miles of our locale.

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12-16-2005, 05:59 PM	#16
Tom R View Profile Tom R Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (6,484) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Carpenter Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 6,484	Re: New Flat Roof "ponding" Welp, - - although I'm a remodeler and not a roofer by trade, - - I gotta agree with Medusa on this one, - - let's face it the facts here, - - if a customer knew before-hand they were gonna pay for a roof that was going to 'pond', - - they simply wouldn't get it done (at this price, by this contractor), - - the customer is relying on the expertise of the contractor to get a proper job, - - or at least be forewarned of any potential problems with the proposed work. __________________ http://www.tr-built.com Last edited by Tom R; 01-01-2006 at 06:24 PM.

12-16-2005, 07:25 PM	#18
Mike Finley View Profile Mike Finley Chief Toilet Mover Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (14,078) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Chief Toilet Mover Trade: Bathroom Remodeling Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Littleton, Colorado Posts: 14,078	Re: New Flat Roof "ponding" Damn, it's a sad day when I have to totally agree with you. This seems to be one of those issues where technically the roofer might be able to get away with this, but if we just stop all the B.S. and just think about this using common sense, this situation makes no sense, 48 hour rule or not. As Tom said, what customer in their right mind knowingly would sign a contract for a roof job knowing that it would pool for even 2 hours? It just seems like common sense that you want water to run of a roof, not collect there, collecting is just asking for trouble if not today, then some other day. Last edited by Mike Finley; 12-16-2005 at 07:30 PM.

12-16-2005, 07:40 PM	#19
Tom R View Profile Tom R Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (6,484) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Carpenter Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 6,484	Re: New Flat Roof "ponding" Call me a perfectionist, - - .25"/ft is not flat, - - it's .25"/ft for a reason. If you took your same theory to plumbing none of your drains would drain. Would it be OK for your plumber to tell you "it's a 'catch-22', live with it"?? And if your plumber told you "it happens all the time", - - would you feel any better about it?? What allows a roofer's .25"/ft to be any less than a plumber's .25"/ft?? If ponding was so acceptable why would .25"/ft even enter the equation?? __________________ http://www.tr-built.com Last edited by Tom R; 12-16-2005 at 07:53 PM.