tekwrytr

I got an email awhile back about an EPDM project in West Virginia. I am in Minnesota. The contractor is in South Carolina. After a few emails back and forth, I quoted a price to supervise and install the EPDM as a 1099 with 2-4 of the contractor's employees. So far, not unusual; I do jobs like this routinely, and all over the country.

After agreement on my charges, I sent a (relatively) simple proposal, indicating price per square and a few other details. The prompt response was "how soon can you get to the jobsite?" That was about two weeks ago, and the proposed start date is 10 days and 900 miles away. About 10 days ago, I got a brief email requesting I provide a complete material list and equipment list, to be sure they have everything on hand for the job start. I ran through the detail drawings, found some problems with them, emailed information and asked for verification. (Essentially, the detail shows an up-and-over at perimeter and walls--no RMS, no termination bar.)

As time passed, and I still did not receive the signed proposal (or clarifications about detail work necessary to qualify for the spec warranty requirement), I began to be a bit skeptical.

All of which is a huge buildup to the question: Anyone have any experience with out of town contractors requesting upfront work doing material takeoffs, etc., before there is a firm commitment in writing? I run across things like this in software development and technical writing all the time, but this is a first in 30+ years of roofing.

Second question: Has anyone been approached about the same project? Same situation? Same requests for material lists that should have been part of their original bid? Project is in Charleston, West Virginia. Contractor is in Charleston, South Carolina.
Thanks

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Commercial EPDM Rubber Roof Repair - Maintenance - Re-Roofing Exclusively. Serving the Twin Cities, MN Metro area since 2001.
http://www.EPDMspecialists.com

Slyfox

I had a situation a couple months ago.
A guy found me through my web site, told me he was a general contractor, newly established, but he mentioned several names of other contractors he worked for in the past that I knew, thus I thought he was on the up & up.
After a couple emails and one physical meeting and him telling me he wants to sub all his siding and roofing out, strictly residential,
I agree to send him a 'contractors' price list, I price jobs less for contractors than home owners because the contractors offer repeat work.

I send him the price list, it shows cost of labor for every situation,
walkable one layer re0roof, two layer, etc., steep, carpentry work charges, etc., couple days go by with no response,
I call and leave a message on his voice mail, couple weeks go by, no response.

I found out a few weeks ago that he was starting his own roofing and siding business and he was just looking to get an idea of labor cost from me.
He roofed for XXXXXXX roofing and siding and was not sure how to price work, being he was a crew leader but never salesmen for that company.

This was not the first time I found myself in this situation, which is why I ask a lot of questions and 'usually' have a signed agreement before I release any detailed information.

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ARoofing

I had an experience similar to what you are talking about except I was the "jerk". What happened was I had been roofing for about 4 years, and then decided to start roofing on my own at this time I was subbing off of a larger contractor but also doing houses on my own. When I started doing the houses on my own I asked a few roofing companies in the area what their prices were, not because I wanted to try and steal houses from them but because I wanted to offer similar pricing to make it fair in the area. None of these companies offered to tell me their pricing structure so I devised my own and starting giving estimates. It turned out that since I was working for myself and had no overhead cost of running an office and paying clerical staff I was charging 40 dollars a square less than the average for my area (Average in Canada where I live is about 250 a square single story walkable). Once the other companies found out how much I was charging they got upset with me and asked if I could move my pricing to match the area norm because I was getting every single house I bid on, they then provided me with some of their pricing structure and we get along great and swap business in certain areas of town that are closer to each others office. I changed my pricing because I was not in the business so make people mad.
What I am saying is that sometimes when people ask what to charge its because they are trying to get into the business and compete on a level playing field and not steal your work.

Kgmz

Aroofing: I hope you do know that is not legal, otherwise known as price fixing, price collusion.

ARoofing

Its not price fixing, we don't charge the exact same price but most roofing companies in the area offer similar pricing depending on workmanship warranty and other things. Are you telling me that in your area there is no average price that the majority of companies charge per square? Im sure there has to do be some sort of uniformity in your area.

outlaw

Around here prices are all over the place. Some companies that look expensive are really some of the lowest. I think this is mostly due to hiring illeagals as subs. They are so low that they must try to do 3 roofs aday to make any money. Then you have the ones that are sky high. They are usually the high-pressure sales with the same illeagal subs. Go figure

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www.clarkroofingandsiding.com

Slyfox

The time to ask questions and get an idea of how / what to charge was while you were still working for some on else.

I have had people ask about pricing before because they were new to the buisiness, and I did so, but only gave them general answers not detailed pricing's and sales pitches.

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Kgmz

Price fixing doesn't mean the price has to be exactly the same.

The key word is "collusion".

And this statement you made certainly implies collusion on their part and your part by going along with it.

"Once the other companies found out how much I was charging they got upset with me and asked if I could move my pricing to match the area norm because I was getting every single house I bid on, they then provided me with some of their pricing structure and we get along great and swap business in certain areas of town that are closer to each others office."

tekwrytr

I don't think price fixing is an issue, and may be a misnomer in most markets. Roofing tends to be price-driven; while many contractors believe they are "selling," they are more often simply underbidding the competition. Some people are willing to pay for years in business, laundry lists of references, etc., but primarily when the prices are also competitive.

Because the majority of the work I do is commercial, I am acutely aware of pricing. Particularly for a property manager client base, it is essential to be BOTH reputable and competitive. The home improvement market may be different, but in dealing with professionals--property managers, business owners, general contractors--there is rarely a carte blanche on the money end. To stay in business, you have to do good work at decent prices.

In a boom economy, everyone can charge more, and they usually do. In a down economy, everyone has to sharpen his or her pencil, or price themselves into bankruptcy. That is, if overhead and operating costs start exceeding income, it is time to seriously consider if your pricing policy is realistic.

We have roofing companies in this area with more people in the office than on the roof. When the insurance work from the occasional hailstorm dries up (as it is doing now), a number of those companies are conserving money by firing people they don't need--the roofers and laborers. They don't need applicators if they don't have work for them. Those roofers and laborers are now "contractors" and taking the work that would otherwise have gone to their previous employers, by the simple expedient of underbidding them.

Most professionals in the building industry are aware of the fact that the myth of "low price equals shoddy work" is a sales ploy in home improvement contracting, rather than anything approaching reality. The boom economy in recent years has made a lot of contractors lazy and inefficient, simply because inflated prices were the norm. In many cases, building professionals realize that they can hire roofers (or siders or whatever) directly for a lot less money than subbing to a roofing contractor, and essentially hire the same people to do the work.

Bottom line is that knowing what prices Company A, B, and C charge is only useful if Companies A, B, and C are getting all the work. As stupid as it may sound on the surface, we tend to ignore what other roofing companies charge; we base our prices on our costs, plus margin, and make roof installations that require little or no after-completion maintenance or recalls. By doing the jobs right the first time, we save a lot of money in recalls. By making our operations more efficient, we can increase our profit margin and underbid competitors who are less efficient.
Thanks

__________________
Commercial EPDM Rubber Roof Repair - Maintenance - Re-Roofing Exclusively. Serving the Twin Cities, MN Metro area since 2001.
http://www.EPDMspecialists.com

Slyfox

If your saying that roofer 'A' bidding $245.00 per square,
on a job I, roofer 'B' just bid at $255.00 per square,
is offering as good a service as me, yes, I can agree,
but the roofer 'C' who bid that same job at $185.00,
is also offering the same quality service, no way.

A 30 yr shingle and the underlayment, flashing's, fasteners, waste removal etc., with a reasonable mark up runs $130.00 per square in my area.
That leaves the roofer who bid '185' $55.00 per square for labor, office, insurances, etc.

Roofer 'C' is cheating some one, some where,
maybe he/she doe's a proper job but claims all his/her workers as subs instead of employees meaning he/her is cheating the IRS, State/City Tax,
Workers Comp-, Liability Insurance, Etc.

There's a big difference between competitive pricing and low ball pricing.

You do get what you pay for.

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tekwrytr

There is another side to the issue. "Fixed costs" are not fixed, they are variables. That is, your fixed cost is not the same as my fixed cost. You may buy from Distributor A on a per-job basis, and have all material delivered and loaded. I may buy from Distributor B in carload lots, and send a crew of roofers out with their material on a conveyor truck. Or have a loading crew. The point is that by increasing operational efficiency, the cost of a square of shingles applied by your company may be more or less than the cost of a square of shingles applied by my company.

(This is all hypothetical, of course. We don't do shingles)

We focus primarily on fairly large roofs. By increasing the efficiency of our methods (way different than "taking shortcuts" or "cutting corners"), we can apply EPDM roofs at very low prices, while maintaining the same (or greater) margin of profit as companies charging substantially more. We don't cut corners; we work more efficiently. "Cheating" never enters the picture at all.
Thanks

__________________
Commercial EPDM Rubber Roof Repair - Maintenance - Re-Roofing Exclusively. Serving the Twin Cities, MN Metro area since 2001.
http://www.EPDMspecialists.com