Ice Shield At Gutter Line?

 
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Old 02-15-2008, 01:58 PM   #1
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Ice Shield At Gutter Line?


I've instructed my roofing and gutter crews to install the ice shield to this specification: http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/...101.html&did=8

As you can see, the ice shield overlaps the fascia 2-3" before the gutter and gutter flashing are installed. We do this so when there is ice back up, rather than going inside the house, it goes behind the gutter.

However the solution is also the problem. When icicles appear behind the gutter, I end up with a complaining customer. I am dealing with that right now. There's nothing I can do about the ice. I'd rather have it behind the gutter than inside the eave.

What are your thoughts on this? Do I play hard ball and say "I'm doing it to spec." or do I find a new spec?
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Old 02-15-2008, 02:07 PM   #2
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Re: Ice Shield At Gutter Line?


BTW this is also a very similair detail as to how Certainteed wants their winterguard installed... http://www.certainteed.com/NR/rdonly...Manual8Ch5.pdf

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Old 02-15-2008, 02:10 PM   #3
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Re: Ice Shield At Gutter Line?


Hasn't roofing 101 always been underlayment OVER eave metal and under rake metal? As long as it's applied warm, the ice/h2o will solidly adhere to the drip edge making a much better detail. But if this is the product spec, I would show the customer this and tell them you are only following manufature's specs. If it continues to be an issue, suggest heat cable??
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Old 02-15-2008, 02:15 PM   #4
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Re: Ice Shield At Gutter Line?


Not similar, the grace is showing it under the eave metal, the certainteed is showing it over the eave metal. The certainteed spec is the same as we've always done with all underlayments, especially ice/h2o. As long as your eave metal extends over and into the gutter, you should have a good system.
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Old 02-15-2008, 02:20 PM   #5
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Re: Ice Shield At Gutter Line?


I think you need to check again (Page 50 on the certainteed manual I posted above.), It's the same thing on both sheets. Ice shield is being installed behind the gutter first, with the gutter installed 2nd, and the gutter flashing (eave metal) being installed over the ice shield and over the gutter 3rd.

The reason adhering the ice shield to the gutter flashing doesn't work is exactly the phenomina occuring now with so much snow and ice that it's backing up between the gutter and the flashing. If the ice shield was adhered over the flashing the ice would easily migrate into the eave constrution.

I can't really inspect until the ice melts. I'm wondering if the gutter flawshing is some how wavy... oir maybe just a couple feet of snow will do that no matter what. This is a problem every winter.

Last edited by Grumpy; 02-15-2008 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 02-15-2008, 02:26 PM   #6
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Re: Ice Shield At Gutter Line?


I am sure he was referring to the detail on the left side of page 46, which does show it as he stated.

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Old 02-15-2008, 02:44 PM   #7
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Re: Ice Shield At Gutter Line?


With the job done already I would put a Z piece of White alumnium under the dripedge and into the gutter.
When we install gutter we use apron most of the time.
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Old 02-15-2008, 02:46 PM   #8
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Re: Ice Shield At Gutter Line?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer View Post
I am sure he was referring to the detail on the left side of page 46, which does show it as he stated.

Ed
Ok Right, agreed!

But when gutters are not installed. We do it this way when we are replacing a roof which currently has gutters and those are not getting removed. To me a gutter flashing/apron and a drip edge are not the same. We don't use drip edge IN or WITH a gutter.
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Old 02-15-2008, 03:05 PM   #9
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Re: Ice Shield At Gutter Line?


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Ok Right, agreed!

But when gutters are not installed. We do it this way when we are replacing a roof which currently has gutters and those are not getting removed.

To me a gutter flashing/apron and a drip edge are not the same.

We don't use drip edge IN or WITH a gutter.
I think that you and I are some of the rare ones when it comes to that. I always use the actual gutter apron for the eave edges and the ode for the gable edges when we need to install new metal.

Even though your gutter sub is very trusted, does he install the brackets close enough to maintain a consistantly tight fit of the gutter to the fascia boards? I know, you will probably have to wait for the snow and ice to melt to check it out for sure, especially with the forecast for this Sunday.


Also, you know that the front edge of the profile of the gutter is intentionally slightly lower than the rear vertical back side, with the intended purpose of ice being able to be released from the trough by flowing over the shorter front side instead of creeping up in the rear.

That sounds good in theory, but when ice is forming, without melting sifnificantly between cycles, it just does not follow the rules I guess.

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Old 02-15-2008, 03:11 PM   #10
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Re: Ice Shield At Gutter Line?


The ice in the gutter is about 6" high above the front of the gutter, straight up. Probably a foot of snow directly on that.

My gutter subs are under direction to match their bracket spaing with the spacing of the rafters. IN other words try as much as possible to get the brackets through the fascia and into the rafter tails. I've no way of knowing at this point how tight the flashing is to the back of the gutter, but I am thinking of brackets are 24", then I may want them to put a zip screw or something between brackets.
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Old 02-15-2008, 03:27 PM   #11
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Re: Ice Shield At Gutter Line?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
The ice in the gutter is about 6" high above the front of the gutter, straight up. Probably a foot of snow directly on that.

My gutter subs are under direction to match their bracket spaing with the spacing of the rafters. IN other words try as much as possible to get the brackets through the fascia and into the rafter tails. I've no way of knowing at this point how tight the flashing is to the back of the gutter, but I am thinking of brackets are 24",

then I may want them to put a zip screw or something between brackets.
That could be an answer, but I would think something more along the line of a wood tek screw with a neoprene and metal washer to reinforce the continual tightness of the adhesion to the fascia.

Try Pro-Fastening Systems for that product, out of Arlington Heights.

Also, as another "Upgrade" premium option to market, I am just thinking outside the box here, what about a foam or sticky product that adheres to the back side of the gutter that would create a water-tight seal against the fascia. Duro-Last uses a product called "Strip Mastic", which is like a bead of caulking sealant on a wax release paper to the sticky side. This may create the seal you are looking for.

I would then add lines to my gutter option proposal, which eliminates the liability from you, if they do not choose the premium solution.

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Old 02-15-2008, 03:34 PM   #12
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Re: Ice Shield At Gutter Line?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer View Post
I would then add lines to my gutter option proposal, which eliminates the liability from you, if they do not choose the premium solution.
Now I am liking it.
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Old 02-15-2008, 03:39 PM   #13
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Re: Ice Shield At Gutter Line?


Your doing the right thing. I dont care for the drip edge myself I always just bend the ice shield behind the gutter to seal any holes or gaps between the sheathing and fascia. What good is drip cap when you dont change the aluminum fascia or gutter. The gutter will hold ice and water will pour into the loose spike and ferrule holes or sheathing gap. Then what good did you do? How do you convince the customer that ice shield works.?
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Old 02-15-2008, 03:40 PM   #14
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Re: Ice Shield At Gutter Line?


I don't like to assume liability for things that are beyond my control.

With that point in mind, as long as this is an act of God, creating these ice backups, I would stop being condescending to the home owner and correctly explain the nature of the beast, regarding ice formations.

If they do not like the answer, the heat cable option would be available to them to cut through and melt the ice. (I can't believe I recommended that?)

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Old 02-15-2008, 03:50 PM   #15
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Re: Ice Shield At Gutter Line?


Ok uploaded a photo from my phone yesterday. Wow pretty good for a phone.
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ice shield at gutter line?-pic-0035_small.jpg  
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Old 02-15-2008, 04:01 PM   #16
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Re: Ice Shield At Gutter Line?


Is you ongoing problems typical of houses with a rough surface exterior finish like this one, or also on fascias that are clad in aluminum or just bare cedar?

Maybe that rough exterior finish is preventing the gutters from being firmly sealed to the facade.

Start keeping a log of the conditions present on recurring problematic themes like this to see if there are any similarities that you can identify to avoid future problems.

Ed
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Old 02-15-2008, 04:11 PM   #17
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Re: Ice Shield At Gutter Line?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
I've instructed my roofing and gutter crews to install the ice shield to this specification: http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/...101.html&did=8

As you can see, the ice shield overlaps the fascia 2-3" before the gutter and gutter flashing are installed. We do this so when there is ice back up, rather than going inside the house, it goes behind the gutter.

However the solution is also the problem. When icicles appear behind the gutter, I end up with a complaining customer. I am dealing with that right now. There's nothing I can do about the ice. I'd rather have it behind the gutter than inside the eave.

What are your thoughts on this? Do I play hard ball and say "I'm doing it to spec." or do I find a new spec?
If I'm reading this right ,your trying to keep all the winter dripping from getting behind the gutter?

The only sure fire way I see is to run the I&W into the gutter,thus preventing any" back up "getting behind the gutter or up the roof line under the drip/I&W intersection.
Maybe leaving a piece of I&W ,(long enough to go into the gutter about 2"-3")overhanging the eave with the backing still attached until the gutters are installed.Then,use this piece to seal out any "back up" from getting behind the gutters?
The gutters would need to be clean for a good seal,and the I&W warm enough to adhere.


I've used this method on the EDPM without any problems................yet!

Last edited by oldfrt; 02-15-2008 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 02-15-2008, 04:22 PM   #18
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Re: Ice Shield At Gutter Line?


That was a thought also old far except that after a few years freeze thaw cycles it becomes unstuck from the back of the gutter. That's how guys used to do it when I&W first hit this area.
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Old 02-15-2008, 04:30 PM   #19
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Re: Ice Shield At Gutter Line?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
That was a thought also old far except that after a few years freeze thaw cycles it becomes unstuck from the back of the gutter. That's how guys used to do it when I&W first hit this area.


Wow,
I've never done it that way,but it's good to know what to expect.

Does it matter what brand of I&W is used?
It seems that the old "Grace" we've found under the older roofs is impossible to pull off the decking and aluminum drip edge.
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Old 02-15-2008, 04:48 PM   #20
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Re: Ice Shield At Gutter Line?


Oh I agree about the hesitation suggesting heat cable, why I said it as a last resort. But it is always an option of sorts.
As far as differences in ice/h2o, yes, there are huge differences in quality between mfgrs. Around here, tarco is about the worst useless crap, elk and iko aren't bad, then you get into carlisle and grace in the upper end of quality.

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