Help, Old Shingles Stuck To Ice Shield???

dougger222

A couple roofers at the meeting said they think the fix all is felt over the new ice and water to prevent future sticking, a city inspector I talked to once about it also said it was the best way. Told the class and that inspector why it's a bad idea.

Think about this. If you put felt over the ice and water yes the shingles will come off great but how do you get the felt off? You know the felt will stick to it. That being said do you just put the new ice and water over the old felt? I know ice and water is said to be laid on decking only and not felt.

My Uncle will not use Winterguard because he feels this brand of ice and water is the most likely to get the shingles stuck to it. All the other brands seem to tear easily and feel slipery when dry.

In a perfect world you would send out 10-20 sheet of decking with every roof load. BUT what about the valleys and the ice and water and shinlges stuck there? Are you going to replace some decking there too? Probably not.

A&E Exteriors

You've been paid for this? No one says why is there a hump 6' up all the way across? You have voided any and all man. warranties, not to mention that now all the eaves and valleys are going to last half what the rest of the roof does. You remove the sheeting and replace it. Shingles do permanently adhere to ice & water shield. I love those jobs, makes tear-off faster and more money for me as re-sheeting is about the easiest work on a roof

A&E Exteriors

this may be true, but read the above post , doing that is hack-****. No self respecting roofer would do this. and why pay a guy to remove stuck shingles at the rate of about 2 hours per sheet when it's way more efficient to remove the wood and replace. And I'll say again this will void ALL warranties and cause pre-mature failure of the roof system especially at the vunerable areas where I&W is used. And me as a HO, if paying for a tear-off, want ALL old shingles gone.

A&E Exteriors

Read the shiglemaster manual, it clearly states to do this for this reason. no, I've never done it myself however may just start, what's a couple extra rolls of felt cost? usually have some leftover anyway right?

twill59

I had to re-read this dougger. I believe the correct term is "courses" and not "layers"
I am getting to the point where i don't much care what CT or the others say. I would prefer a realistic warranty over their roofing expertise. I will take care of the decking issues, thank you
How in the hell they can promote this kind of thing without doing an inspection is beyond me.
Did they not learn anything from the Horizon debacle? Why would they back themselves into a corner here?
It just seems to me, again, their interest is in selling shingles, not in slowing down production a little to do the job right. Believe me if it was only a minor hump here or they we could work with it. We could even grind it for crying out loud! It rarely is. As someone stated it is usually many sq. feet and the sooner you get to replacing that wood on a t-off, the sooner you done struggling with it and getting the job dried in and roofed.

And your uncle might be correct dougger. It could be that WG is the worst about shingles staying stuck to it. Altho there may be other factors such as exposure, shade, age. I'll keep an eye out for that info

twill59

And also, since the Insurance Cos. inserted themselevs into 1-800 free roof business, they ought to pay for all of this. It comes with the territory nowadays

MJW

Twill, you are right in your thinking, but it's not just CT. I feel all of these companies jumped on the bandwagon for this I&W and got it twisted into the code eventually.

Aoscar, you act like this hasn't happened to you, and you act like you haven't dealt with the general public yet. Don't call someone a hack just because you don't understand the circumstances.


The I&W sticks to the shingles....why???? Because they are too hot! Southern facing roofs are always stuck, especially when installed when it was 90+ degrees out. Poor ventilation contributes also. I really think it's a bad idea installing these products in the middle of the summer. Down south, this stuff isn't made as sticky, so maybe it's not as big of a problem...or...they just haven't had the storms yet to deal with the I&W.

Dougger is right. Homeowners will NOT pay for new sheathing and neither will the ins. companies. EVERYONE is going with the cheapest possible way to get things done lately.

outlaw

Dam skippy! Make the bass turds pay

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dougger222

I think Joe may be onto something with the hot application causing sticking to the ice and water. I've also noticed that South exposures will normaly have more sticking issues that North exposures. We have done roofs in the middle of Winter as new construction to go back and tear off due to hail that had shingles stuck to the Winterguard. It's worse though redoing roofs that were shingled in the Summer. I've asked several of my veteran installers if they think it's true that Summer installed ice and water and shingles stick bad and they don't know for sure.

CT has had problematic shingles but those organic days are the past. They spend around 600 million dollars a year in product research so would suspect they are testing a lot of roofing materials. They have worked with 3M with different things in recent years as well.

Trust me I wish this problem didn't occure.

Grace is one of the only ice and water products I can think of that won't allow shingles to stick to it.

Certainteed does make three types of Winterguard. Sand, Granular, and High Temp.

If my bids included replacing two rows of decking on all eaves the insurance companies would laugh at me and the home owners would never call me back. When you start out being high end it's tough to charge even more.

J-Peffer

My high end customers are probably the cheapest SOB's I've ever worked for.

The guys who tend to care the most, are retired GM/Ford Employee's, factory workers, or tradesmen/union men. They appreciate a good job done, like to sleep at night. They would want me to replace the decking, and would expect me to use CDX and not waffer board.

Get on this expensive homes, and they don't want you to do anything, because they are just going to sell the house ASAP. Maybe their stocks are doing bad, they are not getting the dividends anymore. My favorite is most don't care because they will be dead in less than 30 years.

A&E Exteriors

I know how HO's are. One thing I do when looking at a roof, is take my flat bar see how many layers are there, and do a quick check in any problem areas I may see. If you do this it's easier to educate the home owner of the problems and the soloutions. I have done jobs like this just never any of "my" jobs. If I was to run into this on my job, being as it would not be a surprise to me because I lifted a few shingles I'd give the HO a discount off of my typical wood replacement price being as there is going to be quite a bit of replacement to be done, and taking a few bucks off of the job to do it right is is worth it to me, I like to sleep soundly at night. You'd be surprised of how far an attic check and layer check while bidding a job goes when so many people don't even get on the roof. I do also know that everyone is extra cheap with things the way they are, but I don't sell myself as the "cheapest guy" I sell myself as "cheaper than those big guys in the yellow pages" and I"M going to do your roof from start to finish, not some sub-crew.

Job I did a couple months ago the HO fell asleep on her lawnchair swing looking at her new roof.

MrRoofer

I&W is BS.

There I said it.

This thread is one reason I say it. It creates uneccesary waste and excess work to remove, then contractual/ethical hassles for the roofer/homeowner.

Another reason is that it makes a hack look good by not leaking.

Another reason is that it band-aids large design issues until the roofer is long gone, at which point the roofer still gets the blame. I speak of dead spots where snow and ice sit all winter long on the roof with poor drainage against vertical walls and cause unseen rot. Of course no one notices until the roof leaks or it is time to re-roof/side. Then try to explain to the customer the arrogance and impracticality of the design is fundamentally what is causing all of these problems.


I&W is lame.


Best solution is to cut it out and replace the decking. If the roof is of reasonable pitch you can probably go over it without any major issues, but be sure to caulk your nails as you go where any 'pooling' may develop, or it will leak. On low slopes if you don't remove those lumps, likely there will be problems.




I spose back in the day before I&W roofs leaked everywhere hey...

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tinner666

You reckon? Until I&W, all roofs let the water pour in and it was dryer to sit outside in the rain!
This valley is 12" wide. 33' run. No caulk. No felt under it. Nada. Only had shingles run into it and the tops cut paraell to the rafters, starting from where the exposure ended. Only lasted for 2 roof cycles. No leaks or wood damage. THough it did sit under 20" +_ of snow some years.

Another one. No tops clipped. Wonder what went wrong? Could installation be an issue? I dunno. There was I&W under the felt.

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Frank Slate Roof Repairs, Richmond, Va.

232323

As the original "hack-ass" roofer who started this post, I still think it's an issue that needs to be discussed. Everyone agrees that the sheathing should be replaced, but in the case of a hail storm, with an insurance company involved, it becomes even more difficult. From my experience, insurance companies won't pay for sheathing replacement. The homeowners expect the insurance co. to pay 100% of the costs. Where does that leave the contractor? You can do all the poking and prodding you want on a roof, but you never know for sure what you have until the actual removal process begins. As for giving "discounts" on sheathing replacement, I can see the customers rolling their eyes now. What do you tell your customer, "I'm charging you only $1000 more which is a discount from the my usual $2000 charge?" A true "hack-ass" isn't going to visit these forums, because he doesn't care about job quality. Attacking and name-calling other contractors is bush league. Give your big ego a rest.

A&E Exteriors

You've never thought of informing the HO that half their roof, mostly the most vulnerable areas, are going to last 15 years and that the rest is going to last 30 at which time the repairs will cost more than a new roof? I'd never give a 50% discount either, my in-laws are only getting about 15% off their roof, and that's probably what I'd offer in your shoes. I'd say, "we are going to have an issue with the eaves, walls, and valleys because...topic of conversation....what I can do is take x amount off my usual wood replacement charge because it really HAS to be done for the job to be done correctly and I know you weren't expecting to have to replace so much decking. " If they won't budge then I'd say, " I'll do the best I can but there is no way I can offer you more than a 6 month warranty." If you are licensed, you are risking it, and this also gives you the opportunity to take pictures, do the wood replacement and charge accordingly because being licensed, you are obligated to meet certain standards. I am aware that I can "poke and prod" all I want and won't know for sure until I rip it open, what I have to work with. What it does is builds the HO's confidence in your thoroughness and commitment to quality.

You can talk to me about adjusters after you clean up after the next cat. 5 hurricane. Nuff' said on the insurance subject.

One last point, my ego is not in play here, only my personal quality standards. Sub-standard work that gives my industry a bad name
is my biggest pet peeve, I hate framers that call within a half inch of any aspect of the job "good". I quit the largest roofing company in town primarily because the owner cared more about quantity than quality and told me to cut corners on a daily basis.

A&E Exteriors

:c lap:

MJW

Give me reasons why the sheathing HAS to be replaced if it has one layer of I&W on it...

Just simply stating that it has to be done, won't go over with a homeowner when the bill increases by $1000+.

A&E Exteriors

There is nothing wrong with covering the I&W, the problem is covering the shingles stuck to it. A tear-off is a tear-off not 2/3 tear-off and 1/3 overlay.
The shingles will degrade at different rates, not to mention the telegraphing will look like crap on a steeper slope and water will pool and may leak on a lower slope roof.

i guess I should have added...."we are going to have an issue with the eaves, walls, and valleys because...topic of conversation...we will remove all the old shingles that we can without taking an unreasonable amount of time to do so, what I can do is take x amount off my usual wood replacement charge because it really HAS to be done for the job to be done correctly and I know you weren't expecting to have to replace so much decking. "

They might come off with minimal extra effort, and they might be stuck like chuck, point is the homeowner is made aware of the potential for extra work to be done and why. Yes some HO's will not go for it and you may not currently be in a position to turn it down, that's where the short warranty comes into play. Some HO's will just get more bids until they hear what they want to hear. This will be the first question they have for anyone else who comes to bid the job, and no matter how many qualified roofers tell them the same thing, eventually they find Joe-Bob the toothless roofer that says it's perfectly fine to leave the old shingles, these are not people that I want to do work for if I can help it. Sometimes, after a few more roofers confirm what you have told them, they will call you for being the one who pointed the situation out. These are the HO's that I do want to do work for as they are typically the grateful kind and ones who will refer you for your professionalism and commitment to quality.

A&E Exteriors

That's why the high end customers have all that money.

buildpinnacle

Ridgewalker is right. I have very rarely had a problem with insurance companies footing the bill for bad decking. The are responsible for replacing the roof system with like kind and quality. In the event the substrate is damaged and it can be reasonably construed that any moisture infiltration is evident from cause of loss, they will pay for a few sheets. At the very least and probably the angle I take on this one is a code upgrade issue. There are code issues with applying the new roofing materials over a non prepared substrate. Get the building inpsector to write you a note stating it has to be down to deck and file the supplement under the code upgrade clause which is evident in 99% of all policies.

On a hurricane claim in Galveston, TX (Rita) the decking was so bad on one of these buildings that we were afraid to walk on it. The insurance company agreed to patch it in spots. Once they agreed, I made them replace the entire 400 SQ of decking b/c local building codes had changed from 1/2" to min 5/8" plywood decking. $167,000 supplement. We filed it under code upgrade. It usually allows for 15% of policy limits.

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