Help, old shingles stuck to ice shield??? - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

232323 · 08-19-2008, 10:31 PM

We've starting to remove more and more roofs with ice shield under the shingles along the eaves. In some cases, the old shingles have bonded to the ice shield making them nearly impossible to remove. Short of removing sheathing and all, does anyone have any solutions for removal? We have ended up just leaving those shingles and re-covering them for lack of a better solution.

**Ed the Roofer** · 08-19-2008, 11:07 PM

Don't you have a price for wood replacement in your contracts?

That is a prime candidate to require the removal and replacement of the wood, due to the foreign materials being non-removable without excessive labor charges.

Time to increase the cost of wood removal and replacement and make sure you bring enough to each job to have all of the eave edges covered if you know this may be a possibility.

Why not use the situation to improve your quality level of a new roof installation rather than sweep the dirt under the carpet?

Ed

Slyfox · 08-20-2008, 05:59 AM

Use a spud bar to seperate the shingles from the i&w,
leave the i&w.

2ndGen · 08-20-2008, 08:40 AM

Scrape off what you can and the rest (provided that it's relatively flat) leave behind. If a man with a tool can't remove it, I'm pretty sure water won't penetrate it especially after you re-cover it with another layer of I&W.

It the remnants are going to be noticable once covered with material (underlayment, shingles, etc...), it has to come out.

MJW · 08-20-2008, 06:33 PM

I agree with all of the comments. Just depends on the situation. Most people want the job done the day before yesterday, so for them..... they get the dirt swept under the rug. The people that want it done right and willing to pay, get the sheathing replaced.

If it shows through your shingles....your shingles are too thin (cheap).

Renegade · 08-20-2008, 07:14 PM

I've been trying to alert ppl to this issue for years. Seems no one thought of the long-term issues with the ice/water hype. We are going to be running into this issue more and more as the years progress. Everyone better start getting in the habit of automatically selling deck replacement into their tearoff bids because, as Ed said, this is going to be the only "proper" way to do this.

I'm going to laugh my ass off as I hear about all these roofs where the contractor sold them solid I/W on the whole deck. Once again, you get what you pay for.

**Ed the Roofer** · 08-20-2008, 07:19 PM

A good solution for "Future" Roofing Contractors, for us to start thinking about now, is to cover up the Ice and Water Shield with a full covering with now felt paper instead of just overlapping the selvage edge.

I will tear off the shingles that are stuct to the I & W, if it is feasible, but if clumps of material are remaining, then it is time to remove the defective condition and advise the home owner accordingly, which would be to replace the plywood with bumps on it with new sheathing.

Does not seem so complicated to me, because we wind up replacing plywood deck sheathing on a substantial amount of jobs we do correctly already.

Ed

232323 · 08-20-2008, 09:19 PM

Thanks for the imput. I agree that the best solution is to remove sheathing and all, but with hail damage and insurance claims, who is going to pay for the added expense? The homeowner's expect the insurance co. to pay while the insurance co. denies being responsible. In the past, insurance companies I've worked with haven't paid for new decking with the exception of wood shingles being replace by laminates with strip sheathing as the old decking. I've been told by adjuster's that the sheathing wasn't damaged by the hail, which is obviously true. So, once again the contractor is caught in the middle. I want to give the customer a first class job, but I also would like to get paid. Any thoughts?

**Ed the Roofer** · 08-20-2008, 10:06 PM

Tell the cheap azz home owner to fork over a couple of hundred bucks out of pocket to have the job done right.

Geez!!!

I didn't know you were speaking about home owners who are already getting a nearly 100 % discount on the job.

As a side note, due to the conditions that require the roof to be done to code, foreign Lumps embedded into the decking should clearly call for those sheets to be removed to meet code.

Call up a building inspector the next time you run into that situation and see if they say it is okay to shingle over the lump on the bottom while the rest of the roof is torn off down to a smooth substrate.

The home owners should get paid for it at that point, due to being reqiored to code to have a clean substrate to install the shingles on.

Ed

Krakkerjak · 08-21-2008, 07:12 AM

DO NOT leave "remenants" of anything under the new underlayment, even if it is "relativly flat", it is bad practice.

MJW · 08-21-2008, 06:52 PM

I agree with doing a correct job, but when the insurance is involved, people expect everything for absolutely nothing. Some even tell you straight out that they want to pocket money from the claim. I don't know what to say, except..... you guys are right, but there isn't a way to get most people to pay ANYTHING out of pocket.

RidgeWalker · 08-21-2008, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 232323

Thanks for the imput. I agree that the best solution is to remove sheathing and all, but with hail damage and insurance claims, who is going to pay for the added expense? The homeowner's expect the insurance co. to pay while the insurance co. denies being responsible. In the past, insurance companies I've worked with haven't paid for new decking with the exception of wood shingles being replace by laminates with strip sheathing as the old decking. I've been told by adjuster's that the sheathing wasn't damaged by the hail, which is obviously true. So, once again the contractor is caught in the middle. I want to give the customer a first class job, but I also would like to get paid. Any thoughts?

I have had a completely differant experiance with this situation and insurance companies. They've paid to replace plywood for every one of my clients.

Ed,

I could not agree more with everything you said! Your smart!

**Ed the Roofer** · 08-21-2008, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RidgeWalker

I have had a completely differant experiance with this situation and insurance companies. They've paid to replace plywood for every one of my clients.

Ed,

I could not agree more with everything you said! Your smart!

From your experiences, is the way I stated your method of getting the insurance company to foot the bill?

Also, I have been successful in representing a few home owners where the Insurance Adjuster insisted that they were not going to be paying for any wood replacement, with the logic that the additional expense incurred due to the even would not have required the homew owner to put forth any wood replacement costs, had their roof not required replacement.

Also, if anyone has ever read my point of view on what I feel the Insurance Company's are Legally bound to Have to pay for, due to the replacement cost definition by the Insurance Information Institute, that your price to do the job and the amount tendered to the contractor, as long as no illegal Gouging is occurring is a necessarry fee to be reimbursed back to the home owner minus their deductible.

Ed

**Ed the Roofer** · 08-21-2008, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJW

I agree with doing a correct job, but when the insurance is involved, people expect everything for absolutely nothing. Some even tell you straight out that they want to pocket money from the claim. I don't know what to say, except..... you guys are right, but there isn't a way to get most people to pay ANYTHING out of pocket.

At the point in time doing the work, a change order gets pulled out explaing the additional cost to do it right and get their warranty. If they decline, then No Warranty, either from you for the labor or the manufacturer for installing over an inadequate substrate.

Also, no warranty for installing fasteners on a deck that does not provide a "Minimum" of 40 psi Pull-Out Strength for the nails.

Itis their home for cripes sake, so they better authorize it to be repaired properly, to manufacturerts specifications, to code minimums and to industry accepted standards.

Ed

manland2319 · 07-19-2009, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer

A good solution for "Future" Roofing Contractors, for us to start thinking about now, is to cover up the Ice and Water Shield with a full covering with now felt paper instead of just overlapping the selvage edge.

I will tear off the shingles that are stuct to the I & W, if it is feasible, but if clumps of material are remaining, then it is time to remove the defective condition and advise the home owner accordingly, which would be to replace the plywood with bumps on it with new sheathing.

Does not seem so complicated to me, because we wind up replacing plywood deck sheathing on a substantial amount of jobs we do correctly already.

Ed

Just curious if anyone has ever torn off a roof where this has been done?

It seems to me like it would work: the tar paper would be stuck to the Ice Guard but the shingles would come right off of the tar paper.

The fact is though that you're putting in an "unneeded" layer just for the sake of easier tear off. My guess is that hardly nobody is doing this, let alone a very rare homeowner that would be willing to pay for it.

WarnerConstInc. · 07-19-2009, 06:57 PM

Tar paper over I&W does not help very much.

**loneframer** · 07-19-2009, 07:06 PM

I know a roofer who would use #30 in all his valleys, then I&W over the paper, then finally paper over the I&W. His theory was that it would aid in tear-off down the road and the I&W would still seal the penetration point of the nails. Along the fascia he would always stick it down to plywood and paper over. I don't know if his theory is correct, but he went out of his way to try.

**Ed the Roofer** · 07-19-2009, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loneframer

I know a roofer who would use #30 in all his valleys, then I&W over the paper, then finally paper over the I&W. His theory was that it would aid in tear-off down the road and the I&W would still seal the penetration point of the nails. Along the fascia he would always stick it down to plywood and paper over. I don't know if his theory is correct, but he went out of his way to try.

He is defeating the purpose of the Ice and Water Shield by installing felt paper under it.

It needs to be adhered to the decking to provide the complete benefit.

He may as well just leave the wax release paper on it and forget the felt. It would serve the same purpose and still be against the manufacturers specifications.

Ed

Grumpy · 08-26-2009, 06:58 PM

Replace the wood, charge the customer. It's a new fact of life in the roofing world.

dougger222 · 08-26-2009, 10:01 PM

This problem was brought up at the Certainteed roofing advisory meeting this Spring. The final word was, it's ok and fully warranted to go over the old shingles and ice and water as long as the tops of the shingle are all thats left meaning to double spots and the fasteners are pulled and it's a clean surface or there is no loose granuals.

The next question couldn't get a solid answer. How many layers of ice and water and shingles is too many? Some contractors said 3 some said 4 and even some said 5.

We do a lot of roofs with two layers of ice and water with the shingles stuck. I would love to convince to the insurance provider that we need two new layers of decking all the way around but that WILL NEVER HAPPEN. I would also love to see all the home owners pay for new decking but again that WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

We've found that offsetting the ice and water a little when going over existing ice and water/shingles helps to prevent telegraphing of the ice and water. If you do both laps the same and have two layers of ice and water on top of each other you will four layers of ice and water at the seam. This can and will telegraph through even on 30 year laminate roofs. How do I know? I've seen it!

The method mentioned at the Certainteed class will even qualify for the 5 Star warranty.