Gaf - OC - Certainteed.

 
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Old 05-12-2010, 05:34 PM   #1
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Gaf - OC - Certainteed.


Alright here it is. Some of you may know that I was a huge fan of Elk so when they merged with GAF, I did not have a choice but to follow them. I always stood behind their product and never had any problems . . . until this year. I started selling a cheaper shingle for homeowners who are needing to save some money. Well, now I am starting to find that although GAF costs more, it may actually be the "cheaper" shingle.

They are incredibly light, granule loss like never before, a lot of bundles of short shingles, dragonteeth missing and so on. Told my rep today that I have had with their shingles. I dont even feel safe walking a 5 pitch with them under my feet.

I have a meeting with both the OC and CT reps early next week so I can listen to them tell me why they think their product is better. My direct sales guy at my supply company is actually the district manager and he has been saying that a lot of guys have been switching to something else from GAF.

What do you guys say about each product because I know we all believe in something different. I feel like OC might be an easier sell because HO are becoming aware of the certainteed problem.

I feel like I am not giving my customers the best roofs for their money.
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Old 05-12-2010, 06:43 PM   #2
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Re: Gaf - OC - Certainteed.


I tried OC on about 16 jobs overt the past few years 25% of them leaked for no apparent reason.

I think water gets trapped by the solid tar line and can’t get out.

The jobs that leaked had been installed for 1-3 years before the leaked occurred.

One leaked around a roof vent, one by step flashing and one in the middle of a roof with no penetrations.

From an installers point of view OC has a lot of loose granules and the fiberglass can cause splinters in your fingers.

I met with the GAF rep last week to check into the Master Elite program. They want $12 per square for the best warranty compared to CertainTeed at $7 per square. I haven’t looked over all the details yet but I don’t think there is going to be a marketing advantage worth an extra $5 per square.

I am a CertainTeed Select Shingle Master but I think they make the warranty program too complicated and their literature is too difficult for a homeowner to understand. That’s why I was thinking about switching.

GAF has a lot of Timberline shingles that are loosing granules.

I don’t know how any of these companies can offer a warranty that covers 100% of replacement cost for 25 – 50 years when the product will probably loose granules and deteriorate.

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Old 05-12-2010, 06:52 PM   #3
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Re: Gaf - OC - Certainteed.


Iíve thought about Tamko but they donít have a Certified Contractor program. The owner doesnít want one and they have been gaining market share without it.
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Old 05-12-2010, 07:11 PM   #4
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Re: Gaf - OC - Certainteed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BamBamm5144 View Post
Alright here it is. Some of you may know that I was a huge fan of Elk so when they merged with GAF, I did not have a choice but to follow them. I always stood behind their product and never had any problems . . . until this year. I started selling a cheaper shingle for homeowners who are needing to save some money. Well, now I am starting to find that although GAF costs more, it may actually be the "cheaper" shingle.

They are incredibly light, granule loss like never before, a lot of bundles of short shingles, dragonteeth missing and so on. Told my rep today that I have had with their shingles. I dont even feel safe walking a 5 pitch with them under my feet.

I have a meeting with both the OC and CT reps early next week so I can listen to them tell me why they think their product is better. My direct sales guy at my supply company is actually the district manager and he has been saying that a lot of guys have been switching to something else from GAF.

What do you guys say about each product because I know we all believe in something different. I feel like OC might be an easier sell because HO are becoming aware of the certainteed problem.

I feel like I am not giving my customers the best roofs for their money.
I like Certainteed really well, but then I have a great rep. I think OC's are fine, but they have been less than receptive to honoring their warranty. GAF's are lower quality ( I see a lot of the same issues you see) and they are non-responsive to warranty calls. I've never had warranty issues with Tamko, so I don't know how they act.
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Old 05-12-2010, 09:55 PM   #5
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Re: Gaf - OC - Certainteed.


In the past several hundred roofs have only put down one GAF/ELK Timberline roof. It was right after the merge in the middle of Winter and the shingle cut so nice. Great you may say but shouldn't they cut tough in the Winter here in MN??? Although all the shingle out of the wrappers laid very flat they seemed thinner and cheaper than what I was used to with CT.

Did one roof a couple years ago with OC Oakridge. It was due to a development requirement that stated that every house in the culdesac had to have a different color roof. At 5 years it was the third time the roof was done all due to hail damage. The funny thing was although it was the third roof it was the first time the four pigeon returns were done! I know of a roof localy that at year 7 had a lot of vertical cracks with these same shingles on them.

Did one roof a couple years ago with OC Duration. 50sq two sided hotel. The shingles were bought by the owner so we had no say in the matter and now they want us to come out and take a few shingles off that are very much different from the rest, two spots. Green roof.

Never put on Malarky, Atlas, or Tamko. Torn off a few 10 year old Tamko laminates and the laminates all seperate very easily from the shingle and very few are sealed together.

Used to install IKO Cambridge and Dynasty for a builder and they actually laid out nice and seemed like decent shingles. Only got a call back once for ridge that blew off a Dynasty roof. I figured the four ridge blowing off was a better deal than the next door neighbor who's attached garage became a detached garage!

97% of the shingles I install are the Landmark line. We're a shingle master company and put the warranty on most of the roofs we install. They are overall a good shingle but from time to time you'll see some curly bundles off the pallets and some butt ends seem out of whack. As far as my rep, he's great. Had an issue with a TL install a couple Winters ago and explained the extra labor and wasted product and he had a check sent out in less than a week for exactly what I wanted.
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:24 PM   #6
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Re: Gaf - OC - Certainteed.


We've been over this many times, and I have slammed GAF every time because the shingles they make up here are not up to par with the others. Many of the lumber yards have gone to them though because they are cheaper and every homeowner seems to know the word "Timberline". Sure, we have put them on at the customers request, but I have no confidence in them. They have even gotten worse since the merge with ELK. Just my opinion.

The Landmark is a much better shingle and with just a quick internet search, the customers should not be worried about them. It's tough to educate the public when everyone knows the name and the self proclaimed "reputable roofers" around, just boast their cheapest price arch. shingle.

I've been saying it for years, in my area, the landmark is superior to the competition (have not tried Malarkey yet). From what I've read here from other Pros, shingles definitely appear to be made very different around the country when it comes to quality.
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Old 05-12-2010, 11:38 PM   #7
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Re: Gaf - OC - Certainteed.


I've had a few home owners in the past couple years call and say they need me to look at there roof because they got deffective Certainteed shingles. After a quick inspection have to tell some they have Timberlines.

If I had a buck for every home owner that said they wanted a timberline style shingle.

What I've noticed is most storm chasers put down Timberline while most locals put down Landmarks.
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Old 05-13-2010, 06:25 AM   #8
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Re: Gaf - OC - Certainteed.


I promote certainteed as my primary shingle and modified bitumen manufacturer. Why? They do make a good product, BUT primarly for the oodles and oodles of business support they provide on the back end. I promote Tamko as my secondary brand, not locking any customer into only one brand. Another thing about CertainTeed, I have seen them pay out for things not covered in their warranty, things they shouldn't have paid for. I was pretty impressed about that.

mel you are right, I spoke with them years back before I started my business and was told basically the same. I think Tamko makes a good product too, but I dislike their 3-tabs. I have no problem with their Heritage Architecurals.

I did an OC roof last year or the year before. I've maybe done 3-4 OC roofs in the last 8 years. The shingles were urine yellow, and should have been their light-gray color. Something happened to them without explination. We noticed after we humped 10 square onto the roof and put down a square or two. OC did make it right and shipped a fresh load direct from their factory the next day. It's good to stand behind your product, like OC did... but I'd much rather never have a failure in the first place.
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Old 05-13-2010, 06:28 AM   #9
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Re: Gaf - OC - Certainteed.






Without even reading the OP, CertainTeed all the way!



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Old 05-13-2010, 06:41 AM   #10
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Re: Gaf - OC - Certainteed.


The only answer to a question like this is like MJW said, it's an regional issue.
Manufacturers have several plant locations, all making the exact same shingle with slightly different results, equipment issues, man power, local codes, I dunno but it happens.

That's same as when you talk about manufacturer rep's, they are regional, the persons seeyou speaks to when he calls Certainteed, IKO, etc., may or may not be the same persons I'm going to speak to when I call.

Regions have different pricing as well, in Youngstown I can purchase Land Marks, Duration, Heritage, Timberline, Pinnicle and Cambridge all at $72.00 per square and can get each of them cheaper from time to time on sale.

I priced a job 3 1/2 hours away in the Toledo area and the price of every shingle went up by 10% to 25%, the cost of Land Mark went up by nearly 40%.

Internet search results, all tho were all on the same web, also change with regions as well.
The search engine detects your location and shows results more directly pointed at your location first, so if your in Portland and I'm in Youngstown the top results of the same search is not going to be identical.

Thus far this year I have used Gaf/Elk, Tamko, IKO, OC and am currently rapping up a 60 plus square Certainteed Land Mark job.
I walked away from each job feeling good about my work.

Is there a chance that one of these jobs may end up having material failure issues, yes, is one more likely to have it happen than the others, no.
Every manufacturer in the US, Canada and Mexico has experienced premature failures with their materials, not one has not.
that includes all lines of their shingles as well, Land Marks were not part of Certainteeds class action lawsuit, but there have been Land Mark failures.

When I'm a contractor selling a roof, when I'm a sub and just selling labor,
I'm selling my services/workmanship not the materials.
I inform home owners that material failure is possible with all materials but it is the least likely problem to occur.
Poor 'installation' workmanship, poor ventilation and storms being the leading reasons for premature roof replacement.

There is no "oh, sell this one" answer that will guarantee you to never have a problem with the materials your installing.
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Old 05-13-2010, 06:42 AM   #11
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Re: Gaf - OC - Certainteed.


Ok, now I've actually read the thread and my post still stands.
Certainteed for me. No manufacturer is perfect, but CT actually strives to live up to what they market.

GAF is all marketing.
I've had nothing but problems with their stuff.
If they invested as much money into their production as they have into their marketing gimmicks,
their products would speak for themselves.

CT has "just enough" marketing, but their product definitely are top notch.

OC? They are 15 year roofs in my opinion.
Tamko? Used them only once. I think their hearty shingles, but IMO they don't seem to be created with the precision of CT's.

CT's have a very consistent production quality that I haven't seen with the other manufacturers.
I've said it before, but one of the best roofing memories I have is when they
bought Bird & Son (the brand I used exclusively since I was 14 years old).

Growing up, I never knew the name GAF, only "Timberline" as the premium shingle.
So, out of a sense of history, I will give them their props for having been at the forefront of architectural shingle production.

But I'm a Landmark man.

My local supplier will always throw in a few bundles for free if I get a skid with damaged bundles.

BUT I have to say this, I believe in regional conditions also so some places might have better results with Tamko or with Owens Corning or with GAF or with Malarkey or with IKO or with whatever. I always suggest to see which shingles are preferred in a particular area then take it from there.
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Old 05-13-2010, 06:43 AM   #12
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Re: Gaf - OC - Certainteed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slyfox View Post
The only answer to a question like this is like MJW said, it's an regional issue.
Great minds...

Sly, I posted literally a minute after you did without knowing what you posted!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndGen View Post
BUT I have to say this, I believe in regional conditions also so some places might have better results with Tamko or with Owens Corning or with GAF or with Malarkey or with IKO or with whatever. I always suggest to see which shingles are preferred in a particular area then take it from there.
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Old 05-13-2010, 06:54 AM   #13
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Re: Gaf - OC - Certainteed.


You guys are both correct.

I believe the answer is what brand does the best job in each area. Everything seems to be completely regional!
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Old 05-13-2010, 07:12 AM   #14
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Re: Gaf - OC - Certainteed.


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Great minds...

Sly, I posted literally a minute after you did without knowing what you posted!

LOL, I been called a lot of things but never a Great Mind .

A funny thing I spotted a few weeks ago, if you go to Certainteeds website,
you are three clicks away from being able to purchase both OC and IKO shingles.
It's not an obvious three clicks, I doubt many end up there, but a home owner really investigating materials and looking into manufacturer ownership, etc., could end up there like I did.
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Old 05-13-2010, 07:41 AM   #15
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Re: Gaf - OC - Certainteed.


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LOL, I been called a lot of things but never a Great Mind .

A funny thing I spotted a few weeks ago, if you go to Certainteeds website,
you are three clicks away from being able to purchase both OC and IKO shingles.
It's not an obvious three clicks, I doubt many end up there, but a home owner really investigating materials and looking into manufacturer ownership, etc., could end up there like I did.
I wouldn't be surprised if CT starts to buy up manufacturers that are in trouble.
They saved Bird & Son (a company I loved who made in my opinion the BEST 3 Tab shingles ever).
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:14 AM   #16
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Re: Gaf - OC - Certainteed.


Quote:
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I promote certainteed as my primary shingle and modified bitumen manufacturer. Why? They do make a good product, BUT primarly for the oodles and oodles of business support they provide on the back end. I promote Tamko as my secondary brand, not locking any customer into only one brand. Another thing about CertainTeed, I have seen them pay out for things not covered in their warranty, things they shouldn't have paid for. I was pretty impressed about that.
That's been my experience with CT as well. "What will it take to make your customer happy?" is the 1st question they ask and "what will it take to make you happy?" is the second.
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Old 05-13-2010, 01:01 PM   #17
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Re: Gaf - OC - Certainteed.


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I wouldn't be surprised if CT starts to buy up manufacturers that are in trouble.
They saved Bird & Son (a company I loved who made in my opinion the BEST 3 Tab shingles ever).
No doubt a company the size of CT, and San Gobain, will aquire other companies from time to time... that's what a conglomerate like San Gobain does. What is different about San Gobain and GAF is SanGoban operates each company independantly.

I'm not just talking about the GAF ELK merger, there were several more silent mergers of lesser known companies... ELK was just the pinnacle.... and quietly along the way as they would aquire one company they would raise their prices, then aquire another company then raise their prices. Think about it, you and I were funding those aquisitions then you and I were paying a higher price to fund future aquisitions. The less compititon, the more they can get away with jacking us. There is still plenty of compitition to keep the somewhat honest... but when I noticed that trend I stopped.

For me buying GAF is like shopping at home depot. Forget that home depot sells GAF, that's besides the point. Every dollar I spend at Home Depot is money out of my pocket as ai Fund a competitor to put me out of business. I'd be happy to pay $13 less per square at Home Depot, but since it's home depot I prefer to give that $13 to a local distributor who doesn't own a roofing company and stricly sells material. Does that make sense?
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Old 05-13-2010, 01:03 PM   #18
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Re: Gaf - OC - Certainteed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slyfox View Post
The only answer to a question like this is like MJW said, it's an regional issue.
Manufacturers have several plant locations, all making the exact same shingle with slightly different results, equipment issues, man power, local codes, I dunno but it happens.
So much for ISO certification.
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Old 05-13-2010, 05:41 PM   #19
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Re: Gaf - OC - Certainteed.


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So much for ISO certification.
I know, I sure can not explain it.
It's like the description that bambam was making about timberlines is exactly how I would describe the land marks I just installed, what else could it be other than different plants preforming differently.
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Old 05-13-2010, 05:45 PM   #20
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Re: Gaf - OC - Certainteed.


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I wouldn't be surprised if CT starts to buy up manufacturers that are in trouble.
They saved Bird & Son (a company I loved who made in my opinion the BEST 3 Tab shingles ever).
It's not a buy out situation i was talking about, it's one of several other businesses owned by Certainteeds new owners.

Certainteed also purchased Celotex shingle division, they were probably the worse 3-tabs I ever used.
Walking on them always brought up thoughts of grass hopper walking the strip of rice paper.

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