Flat roof over garage leaking under exterior walk out door - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

IHI · 05-25-2006, 10:22 AM

looked at a job last night, guy has a house high on grade, then the garage is on the lower grade attached to home. Roof of this garage is flat and previous owner used rubber membrane over the roof deck. The house itelf has a walk out exterior door that allows access to the flat roof where this new homeowner has his grill set-up and laid outdoor carpet over the rubber membrane since there is a railing around perimeter of flat roof it's essentially a "deck".

Problem area: the exterior door that exits onto flat roof, when they installed the membrane they rolled the edge against the house up under the bottom row of cedar siding, but then where it meets the sill of the exterior door they cut it off to be flush with front of sill then used some sort of sealer around brickmold and sill. Well, the sealer has breeched and as a result water has penetrated into the unfinished garage space. The under side of the roof deck has a stain but still appears very intact, the bottom plate for the house in this are has rotted and at some point where some rot was at they installed some expanda foam to seal the missing/rotted wood.

So, my problem: they want the sole plate that is rotten removed and replaced. If I fight it I think it can be done from inside lower garage with proper jacking to remove pressure off joists to slice it out and hammer in new. Now my question, what would be the best method to redo the roof area under the exterior door to prevent future water damage/water entry? I was thinking about removing the exterior door to check and see if plywood subfloor is still intact-replace if bad since door sit's directly on kitchens sub-floor. Then cut out a section of the rubber membrane and laid down a new piece extending to area under door. Seal the membrane to the homes sub-floor and try to make my own rubber corners to fuse to exterior side of membrane and the membrane that's now going to be under the door. After that aspect is done use a sealer of some sort across sill before setting door so if/when water does penetrate the leading edge of door sill the sealer under the sill will prevent it from going any further, then any water would still be sitting ontop of membrane and not leaking into lower garage.

Any suggestions in this funky area appreciated.

thanks

AaronB. · 05-25-2006, 10:38 AM

Does the door sit directly on the roof at roof level or is it elevated at all??

maj · 05-25-2006, 10:52 AM

I would have your HVAC man or metal specialist make a galv. pan to go on the subfloor and under the door. All seams should be soldered.The pan should overlap the rubber roofing where they cut it around the door. And also up the sides of the trimmer studs. You may have to remove some siding to make sure the pan is fully sealed. Seal with silicone before setting the pan, then seal with silicone before setting the door.

Does this make any sense or should I be more elaborate?

Otherwise, I do like your idea of the rubber membrane in place of the pan.........Remember............Think like water, where will I go when I hit the side of this wall at 20 mph.

IHI · 05-25-2006, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AaronB.

Does the door sit directly on the roof at roof level or is it elevated at all??

The door sits directly at finished roof height so I guess you could think of it as the door sill is on the roof deck.

Home suggested installing a sill under the door (he was talking about raising the door itself 2") but I explained the labor intensive route that would open with changing headers, then the everdya life of stepping up over the door sill to get out, not to mention he would still have the same issue-getting it to seal properly so after hearing that he understood that option would'nt really solve anything.

Maj: the pan sounds like an excellent option and I could actually get it bent with a lip on the inside to hug tight on indie of the threshold if that makes sense so the water could never penetrate the interior side (if it did there would be huge problems) I'm a hellava "brake man" and got the stuff to solder it myself so this option is completely viable, otherwise trying to take measurements based on assumtions would result with me having a pan that wont fit tight and would probably be too big for the opening

you know how that goes when you make assumtions LOL, so would prefer to wait until door it out and I can see exactly what I'm dealing with and go from there. Either way I still think I will run the new membrane patch up under the door and seal it to the subfloor then set the metal pan ontop of that so it's essentially got a 3 layer/seal for a redundant set-up and pray it wll works like it should.

In the end I guess if I were the one building this place initally I would've had the garage roof lowered a few inches so there was a step up to the door sill, since right now (without seeing how standing water sits up there) the bottom of the door could be sitting in a lake of water during a good rain for all I know?

maj · 05-25-2006, 12:13 PM

Oh, I assumed the roof was lower than the threshold.
I also meant to say that the rubber membrane + metal pan would be the best line of defense, but failed to add that in my first post!!!

And I also assumed the door would be out when measuring for the pan.

Yeah, you should be able to make the pan yourself, with your automotive background...

IHI · 05-25-2006, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maj

Oh, I assumed the roof was lower than the threshold.
I also meant to say that the rubber membrane + metal pan would be the best line of defense, but failed to add that in my first post!!!

And I also assumed the door would be out when measuring for the pan.

Yeah, you should be able to make the pan yourself, with your automotive background...

The whole thing is ugly over there LOL, but it's a guy I raced with and our kids played together at the track so I'm kinda obligated to give him a hand, he just recently moved in and knew the previous owner, so I guess the previous owner said he will split the cost to fix this with him, so buddy just wants it done whenever I can get to it.

Maybe I 'll just cut a hole in the roof in front of the threshold area and build a box with a drain and run a downspout through his garage and cut a hole in the garage foundation to drain the water into the driveway

lil quicker than doing it the right way LMAO!!! Still glad you mentined the pan, after rethinking it, the pan itself should prabaly go in first since I can build corner flashing into it to wrap around the exterior door jambs and up the wall aways, then I can just run the rubber into the pan and seal the exterior as well as under the sill. I think that actually makes more sense in my goofy lil head.

Grumpy · 05-25-2006, 03:07 PM

IN a situation that you described there is almsot always a problem.

When I am at new construction sites and they are building this kind of setup I tell the builder from day one to build up the door so there is a 4" step. This allows me to properly terminate under the door.

One other thing I have done is to actually remove the entire door fram and wrap the roofing around the rough opening framing then re-install the door frame.

Like I said above these are always problems.

IHI · 05-25-2006, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy

One other thing I have done is to actually remove the entire door fram and wrap the roofing around the rough opening framing then re-install the door frame.

I think it will always have a potential to be a problem, but doing like you mentioned by wrapping the membrane into the RO which will have the metal pan I will build in it prior to wrapping, this should counter act any problems in the next 15-20 yrs... I hope. Guess I give a tiallight guaruntee on this one LOL!! not an "ideal" situation in the least, but alot more practical for the homeowner as opposed to have to step up 2-3" over a threshold to get out of his house.

AaronB. · 05-25-2006, 03:53 PM

Couldnt you simply raise the bottom height of the door and cut the door to fit, then go the route I was getting at, which is the same thign ol grumpy said? The door may be a tad bit shorter, but that really shouldnt make a difference because they would probably step overthe threashold instead of on it.

River Rat Dad · 05-25-2006, 05:27 PM

I'd turn the door in to a window and tell Mr Homeowner the

's over...

IHI · 05-25-2006, 07:56 PM

Aaron, I could cut the door down but it's not a thing I ever put high on a list of things to do with a steel entry door, not to mention if it were my home I just do not like the fact they would have such a large step to go over since typical thresholds are usually 1 1/4-1 1/2" tall already so adding a PT sill would make the step over the door 3-3 1/8" which IMO is just asking for trouble with wife/kids/freinds tripping over it casuing worse troubles.

River Rat: I completely understand your take, but he wont go for it since this is his "gathering area" so I'm going to take this opportunity to do a lil somthing oout of the ordinary and really make the guy happy with the end result...get away from playing it safe and go out on a limb since it's a freind, the way everybodies input has been laid out to remedy the situation I dont suspect any troubles in the near to distant future with water infiltration once I leave the site.

Grumpy · 05-26-2006, 10:30 AM

We are trying to give you solutions to do it properly. Now want to know what most guys will do? Take a guess.

Yep you guessed it.

Black Magic in a can! Roof Cement!

IHI · 05-26-2006, 06:40 PM

LOL, the "black majic" was what gave up the ghost and started this water infiltration problem in the first place

I guess I cant say the "right way" is to raise the door up so you have to high knee step to get out, IMO that's a safety hazard and with the metal pan and membrane going into the pan etc...I see no problem with this set-up since no matter what happens there will be no way for water to infiltrate the structure after everything is adhered down.

RO will get a metal pan with a lip on the back side I will bend up to hug the inside threshold and also have lips bent up on the sides that will essentially make a 3 sided pan that the rubber membrane will adhere to once I set the pan in the rough opening. I will also bend metal corner pieces and solder them to the pan so it'll wrap around the exterior wall and out just past the brickmold so the entire door unit will be sitting in this "pan" that will have the membrane adhered to it after it's set in place, then sealer under the threshold on top of the membrane before placing door back into opening along with full perimeter sealant around brickmould.

Otherwise it's remove the cedar siding,exterior sheeting, gain access and cut out jacks and kings then take header out. Install new kings/and taller jacks, install new raised header, reinstall exterior sheeting, reinstall cedar siding which will probably crack and need replaced in spots and then naturally no matter how careful you are there will be some sheetrock/mudding issues inside and new casing around the door. THEN once your all said and done you'll need a friggin sign and have to paint the threshold bright yellow indicating a huge step to get out so the homies, homies kids, freinds, etc...dont trip and do a face plant on the outside deck. This rasing the door is creating alot more problems in the long run that can easily be solved with the tray and new membrane.

fettycan · 05-26-2006, 07:14 PM

some times the door it self will leak check the sweep maybe add a storm door or add a awning to try keep the water off the door

IHI · 05-26-2006, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fettycan

some times the door it self will leak check the sweep maybe add a storm door or add a awning to try keep the water off the door

As it sits there currently is a storm door and I checked the obvious seal around door perimeter where it seals against the jambs and the threshold is adjustied properly per the paper test. If I had a picture of the thing it would clearly show the problem is where the homie or roofer extrodinare when laying the membrane over the roof deck/walk out are trimmed the membrane to end right at the front edge of the exterior sill (metal sill) and then used black jack around the base of the door to "seal" the membrane to the door sill.

So while it could be leaking past the siding to brickmolud joint (even though caulk still all looks intact around the 3 sides that's not to say it's not seeping past it, but the rate at which the deterioration is on the joists/bottom plate below the damage looks to be a problem that started a long time ago and never really remedied correctly. Should also mention there is a 12" soffit maybe 12-13" above top piece of brickmould so we dont have to assume it's coming from an improperly flashed window/door directly overhead.

snapper21 · 05-27-2006, 07:36 AM

Grumpy's dead on. The door needs to have a curbing built under it, and membrane wrapping it. Is there room above the door to raise the header?

Grumpy · 05-30-2006, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IHI

This rasing the door is creating alot more problems in the long run that can easily be solved with the tray and new membrane.

I agree, it is a trip hazard, but my job is to keep the water out, not teach the occupants of the house how to walk

IHI · 05-30-2006, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy

I agree, it is a trip hazard, but my job is to keep the water out, not teach the occupants of the house how to walk

I completely understand where your coming from and we all know sometimes things are'nt an ideal situation so now I'm left to making the best of the situation. Jacking the door is definately the "easy way" even though it has draw backs, so I'll try to find the happy medium between form and function aka keeping the water out

RooferJim · 05-30-2006, 09:28 PM

I always insist on taking the door out running the membrane into the threshhold putting a lead pan down to counterflash it embeded in sealent then "and only then"your good. it also needs to be higher than the roof "roofing is common sence and a few tricks"

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com