Fixing a saging roof deck - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

pbreazeale · 10-30-2008, 06:18 PM

I have worked in construction for over twenty years and have never heard what my mother's roofer told her. There are a few places where the decking is saging. I pointed these out to the crew that came to do the work, but they went ahead and left the old decking. I told my mother I wouldn't pay until he fixed it, if I were her. When she finally spoke to the actual roofer, who was never here during the work, she was told that "pushing up on the decking", would, "push her ceiling down". Is there anything remotely plausible about this explaination? It's 48 year old house with an A-frame roof, no trusses, about 30 feet across with 2X8 rafters 16in. on center.

**Cole** · 10-30-2008, 06:44 PM

I dont understand the part of pushing up on the decking part.

Why would he have to push up on it? Just remove the damn thing and replace with new decking, it is as simple as that.

pbreazeale · 10-30-2008, 06:47 PM

Exactly... The rafters are bowed down as well, but couldn't you just sister on straight ones?

tinner666 · 10-30-2008, 06:49 PM

Pushed up many a one and added rafters and never pushed a ceiling down.

Sounds like the 'roofer' isn't really a roofer to me.

Are they just uncrowned rafters? Straight ones look saggy when adjacent to crowned ones sometimes. And crowned beside uncrowned ones! THat's usually the case, and is most often cosmetic and not structural.

Water damaged ones should be replaced or rejacked and sistered. So many scenarios, and I haven't a clue what your specific situation is.

tinner666 · 10-30-2008, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbreazeale

Exactly... The rafters are bowed down as well, but couldn't you just sister on straight ones?

Remove and replace. Sistering won't work this time. Jacking will most likely disconnect something at the ridge, and the plate too.

OCRS · 10-30-2008, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbreazeale

I have worked in construction for over twenty years and have never heard what my mother's roofer told her. There are a few places where the decking is saging. I pointed these out to the crew that came to do the work, but they went ahead and left the old decking. I told my mother I wouldn't pay until he fixed it, if I were her. When she finally spoke to the actual roofer, who was never here during the work, she was told that "pushing up on the decking", would, "push her ceiling down". Is there anything remotely plausible about this explaination? It's 48 year old house with an A-frame roof, no trusses, about 30 feet across with 2X8 rafters 16in. on center.

He's just another a-hole taking advantage of an elderly woman

dlcj · 10-30-2008, 07:12 PM

Why would the roofer be asked to repair framing anyway. Maybe he can but dont be mad if he refuses, its not his regular job. Call a framer or do it your self if you been around the buis. for 20 years.
If the rafters are in fact sagging and not the mismatch crown mentioned earlier you can sister on straight ones. Crown the sisters nail at one end and jack up the other end till it even but do not lift the ends of the original rafter. Nail the hell out of it. It'll work and wont hurt the ceiling, plates nor ridge. If you have to use a jack or just lifting by hand be on a partition below.

tinner666 · 10-30-2008, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlcj

Crown the sisters nail at one end and jack up the other end till it even but do not lift the ends of the original rafter. Nail the hell out of it. It'll work and wont hurt the ceiling, plates nor ridge. If you have to use a jack or just lifting by hand be on a partition below.

That works? I've only tried that technique on ones with very little bow, or broken, pr rotted rafters. Was worried about overstressing something.

Jake Stevens · 10-31-2008, 07:32 AM

You said it's an A-Frame roof? Does that mean that it's got a Cathedral ceilin any place inside? It so that would change how I would look at it. If the roofer didn't quote to re-deck or to repair rafters that would be extra. A lot of times it is just cosmetic and a architectural shingle will hide a lot.

747 · 10-31-2008, 01:47 PM

How hard would it have been to remove that sheathing and install new rafters. NOt very. And not the expensive what 6 or 7 dollars a linear foot to iinstall new rafters.

Jake Stevens · 10-31-2008, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 747

How hard would it have been to remove that sheathing and install new rafters. NOt very. And not the expensive what 6 or 7 dollars a linear foot to iinstall new rafters.

Easier said than done. Taking off the old decking can be very time consuming then you should part new decking down with the new rafters.

Three or four thousand dollars will add up quick.

J-Peffer · 10-31-2008, 05:16 PM

He probably was going to force the rafter up in the middle pushing off the collar tie on the truss. As far as replacing sheeting, that's in the description of a roof at a charge per sheet to the customer.

It's actually a time consuming job to replace that rafter. You would have to take off a good portion of the sheeting to do it. I've done it and sistered 2 rafters on each side of the rafter with the deflection in it with out removing all the sheeting. I removed a few sheets on the way up and used structural screws and nails and worked my way up while having a guy lift at the top. When it got tuff, we used a heavy seat clamp to pull them up. It's not going to be perfect but you can't see it fron the ground.

I'd tell your mother to call a framer out too. Don't call them dirt bags taking advantage of a old lady until the roof leaks. They are roofers after all.

roof-lover · 10-31-2008, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbreazeale

with 2X8 rafters 16in. on center.

Sagging decking on 16 inch centers?
almost impossible.

What you have is a sagging rafter.
The rafter is pulling down the sheeting but there is nothing wrong with the sheeting.

Even If you replaced the sheeting... it would still look the same.

You need to do structural work from the inside and is not the responsibility of the roofer.

A roofer might have the knowledge to fix the problem.
For a charge over and above the original contract.
The charge would be large.

iceman61 · 11-01-2008, 11:39 PM

I was wondering how you could be in construction for 20 years & didn't know where the line was between Framers & Roofers & then I realized you are in HVAC. Roofers rarely frame & Framers rarely roof. The Roofer's job is from the sheeting up to the shingle. Everyone here is giving you sound advice especially about the expected sag between crowned & uncrowned rafters.

If you jack a rafter that has a wall directly under it, it usually will not "push the ceiling down", but if you jack a rafter that does not have a wall directly under it, odds are the force will "push the ceiling down" unless the load on the bottom side of the jack is distributed over several ceiling joists. I have seen it happen several times with homeowners trying to fix a sag in a roof by themselves.

2ndGen · 11-03-2008, 12:38 PM

As a 2nd Generation Roofer who's doing his darndest to transition into a Framer, I think that every Roofer should take a Framing Class.

While in Class, Roof Framing was considered the most difficult part and there are crews that just frame in roofs out there exclusively. For me, the class expected it to be easy (and it was). It was instinctual for me. The math didn't make sense at first, but I just followed my instinct and it all came together when I was doing my work. My hip rafter "test" was perfect.

Roofers are programmed to do the opposite of what Carpenters are programmed to do...we are trained to make sure that everything "isn't" level. Level in roofing? Baddd!

Carpenters are all about making everything plumb, level & square.

I'd say Roofers are about making things pitched, sometimes plumb (downspouts/leaders, etc...) and definitely square (field work, shingles, rolled roofing etc...).

I had to learn how to stand upright when I worked instead of "leaning into" the work as I do as a shingler. Flooring though was like 2nd nature to me. Laying out and sheathing floors was a piece of cake (much like flat roofing).
When we'd lay out underlayment over subflooring, the Carpenters were amazed at how I flew with my Shingling Hatchet. They said I was fast, I'd tell them, we have to be...we have to beat the rain.

Anyway, what I learned in Framing Class gives me a whole new outlook on Roof Framing. Not only can I do it now, but I know "why" things are the way they are. It just adds to the tool belt in my brain.

2ndGen · 11-03-2008, 12:43 PM

The "technical" answer?

Rip all that crap out, re-frame that sucker!
(crown side up of course!)

If it's sagging for whatever reason (if it wasn't installed like that), then you have water damage or possibly some rot or pest infestation. It's going to cave in eventually. It's more than an aestetic issue; it's a safety concern. Rip it out and frame it right...nice and straight.

It is what it is...a major reconstruction of your roof.
Maybe an opportunity to add some space?
A dormer? A skylight?

2ndGen · 11-03-2008, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Peffer

I'd tell your mother to call a framer out too. Don't call them dirt bags taking advantage of a old lady until the roof leaks. They are roofers after all.

Yeah!

(Wait a minute...)

Hey!

2ndGen · 11-03-2008, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake Stevens

Easier said than done. Taking off the old decking can be very time consuming then you should part new decking down with the new rafters.

Three or four thousand dollars will add up quick.

Yep. It's a big job. Your basically reconstructing the top of you home.

There is no "cheap" fix if it's gone that far I think.
Wish I had pictures, but I assume it's bad.
It should be re-framed & re-sheathed.

2ndGen · 11-03-2008, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlcj

Why would the roofer be asked to repair framing anyway. Maybe he can but dont be mad if he refuses, its not his regular job. Call a framer or do it your self if you been around the buis. for 20 years.
If the rafters are in fact sagging and not the mismatch crown mentioned earlier you can sister on straight ones. Crown the sisters nail at one end and jack up the other end till it even but do not lift the ends of the original rafter. Nail the hell out of it. It'll work and wont hurt the ceiling, plates nor ridge. If you have to use a jack or just lifting by hand be on a partition below.

Well, depending on the extent of the work, before I even took any Framing Classes, I was able to remove rotted rafters and replace them then re-sheath the section. I did as much as 2 or 3 sqs. worth. It's pretty simple (at least it was for me). I'd only sister a rafter if it was solid at the ridge and at the eave.

dlcj · 11-04-2008, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2ndGen

Well, depending on the extent of the work, before I even took any Framing Classes, I was able to remove rotted rafters and replace them then re-sheath the section. I did as much as 2 or 3 sqs. worth. It's pretty simple (at least it was for me). I'd only sister a rafter if it was solid at the ridge and at the eave.

I didnt say you (a roofer) couldnt do it. Just that its not what he was called out to do and nothing wrong with him to say no i wont do it. I dont believe its a total tear out just for a little sag. I see sagged roofs all over the place that will stay that way for 50 years, its just ugly thats all. Unless it was leaking, rotting, bug damaged or seriously framed wrong just repair it. The lady just wanted new shingles and probably barely can afford that.

Hell next time i have my oil changed at wal-mart i might just have them overhaul the engine sense there under the hood anyway