Educate An Old Graybeard

neolitic

I've been building, remodeling, and fixing other people's screw-ups for 37 years now, and suddenly every roofer I talk to tells me that nothing I've learned means anything. I need someone to explain how these "closed" valleys that I've been patching and replacing all of these years suddenly,miraculously, work. Seems that since the look is all that counts, and they are easier, and don't require as much thought (i.e. piecing into the valley, clipping corners, thinking about where nails are going) they suddenly fly. I just replaced one last year (the way I've done it for years) cause the "points" were catching water and leaking 4' out from the valley. I was almost convinced that I was nuts, then I saw an article on replacing valleys in "Fine Homebuilding" (Nov,2006) that sounded like I had written it myself! (make an excellent tutorial if anyone is trying to teach a new guy).
The nub of it is--Mom's 12/12 needs to be replaced (after 35 years) and knees/back/and good sense ain't gonna let me do it this time. So how am I gonna tell if these guys are screwing up if the whole deal looks wrong from the get-go?

tcleve4911

When you interview the roofers, specify how you want the valleys done. They may say " we don't do it that way anymore and be done with you or they could say we don't do it that way but for an additional $ we can do it your way. Have all the prospects bidding it to do it your way if you don't trust the new ways.
I've seen some of the new techniques & better products and when done properly, they are better than the old ways............... JMHO.

__________________
Back in Maine
Dubbin' Around
Doin' good stuff ......

neolitic

So far only guys I've found doing traditional metal valley are copper and slate types doing churches/commercial and BIG $$ CEO type homes--way too pricey. A couple of the more reputable types I've talked to say they know I'm right , but none of their guys know anything but closed valleys. Sort of implied "We know it'll leak, but we put a diaper under it.(ice and water membrane)"
I even offered to one guy--send me your best guy and I'll teach him! P*sser is I know what to do, but I'm to Friggin' old to do it---"golden years" my a**!

neolitic

Seriously guys, I'm looking for some help here. I know that I've seen the "closed valley" stuff that didn't work, otherwise they wouldn't have been paying me to fix 'em. I was hoping for some info so I can tell if a guy knows what he's doing. I mean I've seen some scary sh** around here. I want to go watch some guys on the job instead just of looking at HO's referrals ("They were polite and didn't leave a mess!"). I've been driving through sub divisions with steep pitched roofs hoping to find someone that way, and I saw a couple guys last week who were laying from the ridge down!!! On my Mother's eyes! I couldn't make that up. Watched for 1/2 hr--kinda like seeing a train wreck--even thought about givin' up my whiskey--for a minute.
I'm not too old to learn somthin' new--just need some convincing to give up what I already know works.

mattp

I'm confused I always do a closed cut valley and have never had a leak. Not one. I have also tried top down roofing and didn't care for it but it does serve it's purpose at times.

tinner666

Here's how NOT to do it.







Here's how I made the repairs, with a combination of open and closed sections, dictated by water flow, and pitch changes. 9 years ago, now. Still going fine.


Never have a joint closer than 12" to center, and never nail closer than 12" to center.

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Frank Slate Roof Repairs, Richmond, Va.

reveivl

Jesus, Tinner, that is one UGLY roof framing detail you dealt with there. I take it there is some reason (out of picture perhaps) that they didn't continue the left side pitch and run it into the intersecting, so they could get rid of that mess?

__________________
From where does knowledge come? If you need to know what is in a box, you could ask someone (not reliable), you could pray, (not useful), you can consult with the scripture (not helpful) or you could open the box (science)

tinner666

That's what I found. It's another 30' up to the 2 ridges. No telling what the carpenters were thinking. Just below where I was standing, the roof changed to a 4/12 with another intersecting valley that funneled from 12' wide to 3' wide! Here's the only view I have of it, in the far right corner.


Don't you just love those lines!

__________________
Frank Slate Roof Repairs, Richmond, Va.

Ed the Roofer

They sure did not space out those Hearthsteads correctly.

What an understatement!

Ed

neolitic

"mattp I'm confused I always do a closed cut valley and have never had a leak. Not one. I have also tried top down roofing and didn't care for it but it does serve it's purpose at times."
I just can't see where anything good can come of top down. How the .... you get 6 nails per shingle?? How can the lap be right unless you nail WAY too high? Sounds like you gotta suspend the laws of physics for it to come out right, and why reinvent the wheel when these nice round ones work so good?

"tinner666 Here's how NOT to do it."
That's what I've seen every one I torn into. Even if they had a little more foresight and pieced in so they brought a full shingle into the valley you still wind up with one roof running water down across/into the spouts and butts of the other. Another thing I don't get is if it's "closed cut" they make all the cuts at once, right? Then how do you clip the tips so they don't catch water?
Really I'm not tryin' to be a smart ass ----I really don't get it.

neolitic

Thanks for the responses anyway guys. I'm loosing too much sleep and using too much gas and shoe leather on this. I've always just done it myself when I can't find someone to do it right--more often than not. Reality is, I just can't handle a 12/12 anymore.

tinner666

I don't know about the others, but for myself;

If I'm running a Cali-cut or Open valley, I make the vertical cut when installing the shingle to be cut later. I make the cut absolutely vertical, on a line to intersect with the finish cut. I don't settle for cutting the top only.

Check this out.


This valley is over 40 years old. From back in the day when galvanized metal lasted for awhile. NO UNDERLAY AT ALL. Never leaked. Only 12" wide. It sat in my shop for almost a year before I got around to taking pics. The traces were faded, so I outlined the edges of the shingles with a marker. They had been clipped vertically on a line to intersect with the finish cut.
This is a tried and proven method. I hired a few 'roofers' over the years that claimed a hemmed edge was all that was needed, and no need to clip the shingles. Their work leaked, which is a tried and proven result. When I get a fellow like that, I fire him then and there if he refuses to 'Do it my way'.

__________________
Frank Slate Roof Repairs, Richmond, Va.

mattp

If you chalk lines you should come out right. I went every 7 rows of shingles. I was still able to get six nails a shingle. One major down fall I discovered was I was lifting up every 7th row to nail down. Thats why it's not the best technique but as I said still serves a purpose.

tinner666

Another thing I do. When weaving a 3-tab, of Slateline like these, I cut the exposed tab off along the valley center eliminating the watertrap caused by a keyway crossing the valley. It's not noticable unless I point one out to somebody.

__________________
Frank Slate Roof Repairs, Richmond, Va.

neolitic

TINNER---YOU ARE A BROTHER! same way I've been doing it since I found out I didn't HAVE to use doubled roll roofing and discovered preformed "W" metal. You ever wanted to see a nice race track--see a really good football team? I've been trying for months(years really, cause I'd have loved subbing some of my roof jobs) to find a real roofer around here. I've talked to dozens of guys--and no one wants to/ knows how to do it like that! At least not so far--still another hundred or so inna phone book to call. If you come across it(Fine Homebuilding, Nov 2006, vol. 182) might give you the warm fuzzies--way I feel when Norm or Tommy show how to do something the way I've done it for 20-30 years. Mebby we ought to be writin' stead 'o humpin"?
Rain all over the radar today, so canceled exposed agg patio pour for the third time, 56 mi round trip to hold hands/explain to HO. Driest summer in 24 years and every time I schedule this one it rains Should hire out to farmers as rainmaker.
Oh well more time for second full time job--finding a roofer.

neolitic

Mebbey I finally see--you hold lower shingle while you nail the course above???
Ain't gonna tell my partner 'bout this one---he can always find the hardest, most left-handed way to do any thing all on his own!
Thanks for the patience though.