Crappy GAF website - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

orson · 11-02-2008, 07:51 PM

Alrighty, all I wanted to do was get a basic warranty length of time for a GAF Elk architectural style shingle to spec a product in an estimate.

Holy smokes does their website suck cow balls, you have to wade through miles of pasture to find a cow patty.

Anyway, it's been a few years since I paid much attention to shingles. The warranties have gotten really complicated, hats off to you guys for dealing with that.

BULLHART · 11-02-2008, 10:28 PM

I hear ya. All that crap and they're still not worth a damn...lol

tinner666 · 11-03-2008, 06:23 AM

Just assume a 50 year shingle is good for 18-20 years and a 20 year shingle shouldn't be used at all and is only good for 5-8 years.
And assume the manufacturer will pro-rate the material costs so an $8,000. bungalow claim will net you about $600. in recovery money.

Slyfox · 11-03-2008, 07:38 AM

LOL, spoken like a true Tinner.

I would never include manufacturer warranty information into my estimate or contract, that would associate your 'company' name with the manufacturers when they do like tinner said and only compensate you 'home owner' pennies on the dollar if they do fail.

I give a 3 yr warranty on my workmanship and assure the home owner I will do all I can to walk them through any dealings with the manufacturer should a problem arise.

Shingles don't always fail prematurely, especially not as soon as Tinner talks about, but it doe's happen to often.

The original roof on my home '4 - 5/12' was 20 yr 3-tabs, they lasted 15 yrs problem free, and still was not leaking when i covered over them with a 25 yr 3-tab that is now 17 yrs old and still remains problem free.

**Ed the Roofer** · 11-03-2008, 10:51 AM

Thats because shingles last longer on Roofing Contractors homes than customers homes.

Better Mojo.

Ed

dougger222 · 11-03-2008, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer

Thats because shingles last longer on Roofing Contractors homes than customers homes.

Better Mojo.

Ed

No kidding!

My Aunt and Uncle who are roofing contractors have the Horizon Shangles on their roof and they are still looking ok after about 15 years.

In all reality the GAF sounds just like their shingles, JUNK...

Slyfox · 11-04-2008, 07:06 AM

What about the 20 yr 3-tab my former boss Harold Heater installed in 1985 on a 4/12 pitch roof with no i&w, metal or 90# in the valleys or on eaves and four pot vents for 28 square of roof.

The home 'original' owner who now lives out of town and rents the home found me via a google search this year and hired me to re-roof it.

1985 - 2008 = out of a 20 yr shingle, talk a bout a ummm, i don't know what you call that, a fluke?

No rotted deck except for a back valley where i replaced a quarter sheet of deck 'angle cut into valley' and thats it.

tinner666 · 11-04-2008, 11:39 AM

Just another example of underlay being unnecessary. At least then. I've done several myself.

But lately, I've seen a few done since '98 that are failing and letting water through the shingles. AndIi cannot find a defect per se. Just water coming in at several locations in the field.

Manufacturers know they've cut the oils and base to a minimum and know the felt is necessary to help keep water out now. I'm thinking of coating paper towels with something better to make a good 30+ year roof.

Aggie67 · 11-04-2008, 05:00 PM

GAF is one of my clients, and I have former colleagues that work there. We do work in one of their roofing plants. They are a fine bunch of folks in my humble opinion. And I know they do a ton of product testing, because I ran a steam line into their test building on their corporate campus few years ago, and got to know those folks well, and I know some of their marketing folks.

But I'm no roofer. If their products suck and their web site sucks, I feel compelled to let them know.

tinner666 · 11-04-2008, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aggie67

GAF is one of my clients, and I have former colleagues that work there. We do work in one of their roofing plants. They are a fine bunch of folks in my humble opinion. And I know they do a ton of product testing, because I ran a steam line into their test building on their corporate campus few years ago, and got to know those folks well, and I know some of their marketing folks.

But I'm no roofer. If their products suck and their web site sucks, I feel compelled to let them know.

It's not jusr GAF, IMHO. IMHO, I see thinner products and I believe the compisition of the petroleum product and the overall products made with it are declining in quality. They all seem to try hard, but everything is degraded in quality.

Even metals. I recently looked a t a 100+ y.o. tin roof that hadn't seen paint in decades. Really rusted. One area had a repair less than 15 years old. Well, the repair had rusted completly out nad the older tin was still functional in the area. Should have been the oposite.

dougger222 · 11-04-2008, 11:24 PM

A couple weeks ago tore off 36 year old shingles on a motel that only had four missing tabs and still held back water. They weren't the nicest looking but looked better than some 10 year old organic roofs.

This Summer did two 35 year old three tab organic roofs that had very little curling problems.

Grumpy · 11-05-2008, 10:24 AM

What shingles have warranties?! Jeez I have been installing them for 10 years now and since day one have known the warranty's are worth crap. BTW is is "Warranties" or "warrantys"?

Anyways a manufacturers warranty is mostly just a joke. On any roof it's the iinstallers' craftsmanship warranty, or leak free guarantee, that really matters. That's what I focus on in my presentation.

I can pretty much guarnatee in 20 years or sooner the shingles are going to be replaced anyways.

dougger222 · 11-05-2008, 06:48 PM

Have yet to see any 30 year laminate shingle make it to 20 years. Of course going back 10 years all 30 year laminates were 25 year.

Consider the shingle gauge made by Haag Engineering.
One side is for asphalt the other side is for fiberglass if any of you don't know what it is. You simply slide the shingle into the gauge and it stops at the spot that indicates the shingle warranty. Very simple design used by most insurance personal.

For a 20 year 3 tab fiberglass shingle the shingle will bottom out on the gauge. Guess what happens when you slide a 30 year laminate shingle in? It bottoms out.

That being said is a 30 year laminate shingle really a 30 year shingle? If you think about it it's more a 50% 20 year shingle and 50% 30 year.

From inspecting 40 and 50 year laminate roofs it would be safe to say they will do the same things as the 30 year laminate shingles.

Grumpy · 11-05-2008, 08:27 PM

Warrantys are sales gimicks. Yes doiugger is right, a 30 year laminate is just two 20 years cut funky and glued togther. I often wondered that myself, how a 20 year shingle can last 30 years... Time will tell, we still replace alot of failing 15 year old roofs every year... and ya know what... the owners are in a terrible cycle of going cheap and repeating their mistake all over again.

**Ed the Roofer** · 11-05-2008, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dougger222

Have yet to see any 30 year laminate shingle make it to 20 years. Of course going back 10 years all 30 year laminates were 25 year.

Consider the shingle gauge made by Haag Engineering.
One side is for asphalt the other side is for fiberglass if any of you don't know what it is. You simply slide the shingle into the gauge and it stops at the spot that indicates the shingle warranty. Very simple design used by most insurance personal.

For a 20 year 3 tab fiberglass shingle the shingle will bottom out on the gauge. Guess what happens when you slide a 30 year laminate shingle in? It bottoms out.

That being said is a 30 year laminate shingle really a 30 year shingle? If you think about it it's more a 50% 20 year shingle and 50% 30 year.

From inspecting 40 and 50 year laminate roofs it would be safe to say they will do the same things as the 30 year laminate shingles.

Did you ever consider the "Less Than Arms Length" relationship that Haag Engineering has with all of the major Insurance Carriers?

Wouldn't it just suit the insurance companys just fine to only have to pay for a 20 year shingle replacement instead of a 30 year shingle replacement, just because a Guage made by their cronies at Haag designed it for a particular outcome>

Ed

Rod123 · 11-05-2008, 09:31 PM

GAF sucks. Today I had to get a shingle match. Homeowner pulled out a GAF plastic cover for his shingle bundles. I swear we have never seen this shingle before! ABC is trying to match it for us. Ask your ABC rep. for help.

dougger222 · 11-05-2008, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer

Did you ever consider the "Less Than Arms Length" relationship that Haag Engineering has with all of the major Insurance Carriers?

Wouldn't it just suit the insurance companys just fine to only have to pay for a 20 year shingle replacement instead of a 30 year shingle replacement, just because a Guage made by their cronies at Haag designed it for a particular outcome>

Ed

Not true, the largest insurance company in the nation no longer uses anything to do with Haag Engineering. This Summer a staffer said she had to throw anything that said Haag on it away. For some reason though they agree what Haag has to say about matching fiberglass to organic shingles. You also have to figure they have one of the best legal teams in the nation.

In the past 200 or so claims only saw one adjuster pay for a 20 year roof. It was in fact a Owens Corning Supreme and at 17 years of age it was a 20 year shingle.

I check the gauge on every fiberglass and laminate roof I go on. Also through the pitch gauge on it.

MrRoofer · 11-23-2008, 01:23 PM

I agree, that website is annoying as hell, but I think a lot of manufacturer websites are getting to be that way, I don't doubt part of it is by design

. It is pretty funny they are called GAF tho, not unlike Malarkey

Cost cutting measures are what prematurely failing roofs are all about. It's getting pretty dicey to put any stock into any shingles these days, and of course it always puts the contractor on the hot seat more than the manufacturer when those shingles fail after 7-10 years. It is a capitalist system however, and failing roofs makes more work for us and them, so, what do you do?