Commercial Roofing Labour %

 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 01-26-2011, 12:57 AM   #1
Roofing Contractor
 
Jason-F's Avatar
 
Trade: Roofing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Red Deer Alberta Canada
Posts: 257
Rewards Points: 258

Commercial Roofing Labour %


Hey guys I was trying to make some projection sheets up and was hoping someone could share what percentage of the gross price of a job is generally attributed to labour expense. This is in regards to flat roofing projects only. I know everyone works with different products when it comes to flat roofs and a solid labour budget would be a great help to pricing jobs accurately.
__________________
www.remstarroofing.com
Jason-F is offline  

Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ContractorTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

   
 

Old 01-26-2011, 07:04 AM   #2
Pro
 
jmiller's Avatar
 
Trade: Roofing
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 1,707
Rewards Points: 1,000

Re: Commercial Roofing Labour %


We put in our first commercial bid yesterday (after being invited hundreds of times over the years) and it was pretty exciting for us. I'm only mentioning this because it's likely I'll put my foot in my mouth:

Why is it any different from residential? The numbers might be higher if you're paying prevailing wage, but do you not still figure materials+labor+O&P?

jmiller is offline  
Old 01-26-2011, 01:32 PM   #3
Roofing Contractor
 
Jason-F's Avatar
 
Trade: Roofing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Red Deer Alberta Canada
Posts: 257
Rewards Points: 258

Re: Commercial Roofing Labour %


Well for my purposes I figure Materials + Labour * (O&P). Labour % is a varriable that can be calculated as a fixed cost for specific tasks only.

The numbers are not the same as they are for residential roofing becasue it is a different task, Just as you can expect your labour to account for a larger part of your budget if you are Shingling a roof, as aposed to installing metal.

Example. for shingle installation install is expected to consume 25% of the gross cost, and materials 40%, leaving me with my
When I do metal the materials usually come in around 50% and labour drops to 15%

In my case I know I can buy a ft of tpo for 100$, but i dont know what it will cost me to install that ft, so i can't calculate a accurate estimate.
Can someone please shed some light on this,
Jason-F is offline  
Old 01-28-2011, 03:05 PM   #4
Pro
 
Grumpy's Avatar
 
Trade: Roofing and Gutter Specialist
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 8,573
Rewards Points: 2,000
Send a message via AIM to Grumpy

Re: Commercial Roofing Labour %


Jason I'd like to give you a magic answer but none does exist.

I have been told by commercial roofing suppliers and manufacturers that I shouldn't be marking up the materials, only the labor. Hmmmmm. Now I will say most people have no idea what it costs them to run their business. I'll also say that the way you markup is actually meaningless unless you know what it costs you to run your business. Furthermore, the manner you use to markup absolutely does not matter what so ever so long as it meets with your necessary overhead and profit target.

I personally feel that you can only use a % markup on an average kind of job. If the job is not average, then your % will be flawed unless adjusted to reflect your over head and profit target. I can give you numerous scenarios how or why this is... An interesting article, if I do say so myself since I wrote it, you may want to read is: How Much Should I Charge?

The method I use is a little convuluded. I markup labor once, then I markup the overall gross costs of goods sold (labor, material, rental fees, permits, etc...) again. I do this because I recognize the logic behind what you are asking. I can sell some high end materials that may take me no longer to install than the cheaper flimsier materials. Marking up only the gross cost of goods sold may make me way too expensive in this case. However marking up only the labor and not the other expenses involved may cause me to be too cheap and not reach my desired overhead and profit target. This markup formula is done in my spreadsheet automatically so I had only need to figure it out once.

However I can tell you even the flaws in the system I use. Therefore in addition after running the spreadsheet, I reverse engineer the pricing. I say how much will it cost me to do this job, how long will this job take to do, how much does it cost me to run my business, and I just do a reality check to ensure that my pricing is realistic and my formula not flawed. In school they called this "checking your work."

If you know your material cost but not your labor rate and not your overhead target, you are like a captian at sea with no compass and no stars to navigate. You'll just be guessing. Furthermore my profit target may be too low or too high for your business structure, so it's impossible for anyone of us to really give you an answer any better than just a guess.

Last edited by Grumpy; 01-28-2011 at 03:12 PM.
Grumpy is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Grumpy For This Useful Post:
Sar-Con (01-29-2011), seeyou (01-30-2011)
Old 01-29-2011, 04:56 AM   #5
Roofing Contractor
 
Jason-F's Avatar
 
Trade: Roofing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Red Deer Alberta Canada
Posts: 257
Rewards Points: 258

Re: Commercial Roofing Labour %


Very good response but, mabey I should simplify here. This is not a "what should I charge scenario." I am not asking about overhead or material costs either.That(as im sure you know) varies too much by region to be answered in a global forum. Labour costs generally remain the same though as tradesmen across the contry make comparable wages.
I am wondering as a average what portion of a gross sale should be resonably attributed to labour expense. Labour only. Forget about Materials and overhead,markup and all the other jazz.

If I was to sell a roof for X amount of dollars, What would it be resonable for me to assume labour of the tearoff and new install to cost me 20% of the contract? Mabey flat roofing is very difficult to install and time consuming, and it would it be fair to expect that a crew would cost me 50%. Im just looking for a number I can resonably assume, a starting point for say. I would hate to hire a sub crew and be negotiating blind, I am just looking for a % i can derive from the principal as a realistic expectation of labour cost.

Last edited by Jason-F; 01-29-2011 at 04:59 AM.
Jason-F is offline  
Old 01-29-2011, 07:36 AM   #6
Pro
 
Grumpy's Avatar
 
Trade: Roofing and Gutter Specialist
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 8,573
Rewards Points: 2,000
Send a message via AIM to Grumpy

Re: Commercial Roofing Labour %


I disagree. And here is why. If you have a 2 man crew you ened to markup the labor more than if you have a 12 man crew.

It really is impossible to answer the question you are asking because some jobs might be mostly labor with very litle material like a repair for example, or a project using very premium high end materials.

If you are trying to figure out how long a job will take based on the material costs, don't. If you are trying to figure out how much to charge for the whole job simply based on the material costs, don't. Truly material costs have nothing to do with labor and material costs vary from job to job, therefore it'd be impossible to say that labor is 20% of the job.

For example this November, I did two very similiar jobs in terms of size and scope. Tear off roofs on 100 year old buildings about 4" thick and install new fiberboard and new single ply. One was .045 TPO and the other was .080 PVC. The labor was the same. The material costs were signifigantly higher with the PVC roof.

I somewhat think you are going about this all wrong, now that I understand why you are asking. My suggestion would be to request a price list from your subs first. If they've done it before they know what they need to charge. If don't know what to charge, maybe they haven't done it before. If you are asking how long it takes to install TPO, well, I figure on a new construction wide open commercial job each skilled roofer will yield 10 squares per day complete. If you use that number as your starting point you can derive your cost per square to pay the sub. If you say the sub is worth $45 an hour that's $45 x 8 hours = $360 / 10 squares = $36 a square. If you pay your sub more or less than $45 an hour, that $36 a square won't work, so do the math with your own numbers. If the job is not so wide open maybe they'll achieve 8 squares a day so then again the numbers change.
Grumpy is offline  
Old 01-29-2011, 07:54 AM   #7
Pro
 
Sar-Con's Avatar
 
Trade: Civil Construction, Excavation, Concrete + Forming
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ontario
Posts: 842
Rewards Points: 504

Re: Commercial Roofing Labour %


Perhaps in what you're doing you can generalize like that, but with my line of work you'd loose your shirt on some jobs and not get the rest of them...

With so many variables our labour ranges from 20% to 80% job to job depending on our scope.

Don't get me wrong, I use averages all the time, but usually for checking estimates and budgeting potential work. It's all about knowing your costs and applying averages appropriately.

Every company is different, every job is different, and when you're pricing work, only thing that matters is your company and that job!
Sar-Con is offline  
Old 01-29-2011, 09:35 AM   #8
General Contractor
 
greg24k's Avatar
 
Trade: New Home Construction-Additions-Remodeling
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 5,218
Rewards Points: 2,726

Re: Commercial Roofing Labour %


What ever you come up with, divide by $Tree Fitty and you will have the magic number
__________________
I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!
greg24k is online now  
Old 01-29-2011, 01:40 PM   #9
Roofing Contractor
 
Jason-F's Avatar
 
Trade: Roofing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Red Deer Alberta Canada
Posts: 257
Rewards Points: 258

Re: Commercial Roofing Labour %


Good point grumpy, Now I understand your point. usually when I quote I do estimate man hours and then add percentages so it all works the same.

Is that a real number, should i realisticly expext 1000 ft a day per man? what about on a roof requering a tear off?
Jason-F is offline  
Old 01-30-2011, 03:06 AM   #10
Pro
 
Grumpy's Avatar
 
Trade: Roofing and Gutter Specialist
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 8,573
Rewards Points: 2,000
Send a message via AIM to Grumpy

Re: Commercial Roofing Labour %


Thae 10 squares per day per roofer on a new construction is an average realsitic number for an average job based on a 5 man crew with 4 roofers and one helper. From that crew I'd expect a 40 square day. For tear off.... man I can only give you a long complex formula because most of our tear offs are 4" thick, 3-5 layers, possible have a few layers of rock... We might get 3 squares a day per man production, to make it water tight, but not complete. tear off is an animal unto its' self and each and ever tear off job is unique.

When I am pricing a job I based my tear off price by setup, layers, and dum fees. If I a tearing off a roof 4" thick that is 4 layers of old BUR and 2 layers of pea gravel, I charge for 6 layers of tear off. Then based on my experience I make an educated guess as to how many dumpsters will be needed. It can be averaged out into some kind of forumal easily for example layers x squares = total squares to be torn off. Then determine how many squares can fit in a yard of dumpster space and you have your formula for future use.
Grumpy is offline  
Old 01-30-2011, 10:24 PM   #11
Roofing Contractor
 
Jason-F's Avatar
 
Trade: Roofing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Red Deer Alberta Canada
Posts: 257
Rewards Points: 258

Re: Commercial Roofing Labour %


Thank you, this is exactly what I needed as a start point.

Jason-F is offline  


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Commercial Construction Spreadsheet Help?? SBI Commercial Construction 16 12-17-2010 10:17 AM
Illinois Roofing License Exam kaconrad Roofing 7 11-20-2010 07:55 PM
Certainteed Announces Industry-First Photovoltaic Training for Roofing Contractors Grumpy Roofing 16 09-05-2010 07:55 AM
CertainTeed's Shreveport Roofing Plant Paves the Way to Greener Operations, Recycling Grumpy Roofing 0 08-12-2010 09:19 AM
Bison Roofing - Louisville Roofing Contractor Bison Roofing Introductions 0 03-22-2010 02:05 PM

Join Now... It's Fast and FREE!

I am a professional contractor
I am a DIY Homeowner
Drywall Talk is for
PROFESSIONAL CONTRACTORS ONLY!

At DrywallTalk.com we cater exlusivly to professional contractors who make their living as a contractor. Knowing that many homeowners and DIYers are looking for a community to call home, we've created www.DIYChatroom.com DIY Chatroom is full of helpful advices and perfect for DIY homeowners.

Redirecing in 10 seconds
No Thanks
terms of service

Already Have an Account?