Ballast Removal from EPDM Roof? - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

tekwrytr · 09-09-2008, 12:25 PM

I have an interesting logistical problem. One story roof, 250 square commercial, 20-year-old EPDM. Re-roofing in Minnesota requires that insulation be brought up to R-22 or better, so additional insulation will be required. What is the best way to get the ballast picked up and off the roof?

I can't believe that the most efficient way to do this is a group of banjo players with wheelbarrows, picking it up one scoop at at time and trundling over to the side of the roof to dump it. Anyone have any experience with usable (emphasis on usable, because excess weight may cause problems) equipment to speed up the process?

Immediate suggestions were for a golf cart or small garden tractor with wide wheels pulling a line of side-dumping carts. It is a ballasted roof over a metal deck, so it is fairly sturdy, but I don't want to take too many chances; the lighter the equipment, the better. Unless specially built for the purpose, most front end loaders/scoops would be too heavy to run around on the roof.

Anyone have any experience using small BobCat loaders for ballast removal? Or know of any rational alternatives? I don't want something so big and heavy that it tweaks the roof structure, but it should be capable of scooping up the ballast to load trailers or even wheelbarrows. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks

**Ed the Roofer** · 09-09-2008, 12:32 PM

Use a gravel vacume contractor to suck up and dispose of the ballast.

R.K. Hydro-Vac continually sends me mailers.

Ed

jamesfl · 09-09-2008, 01:54 PM

Would a power broom help? At least the gravel is pushed to one side.

James

tekwrytr · 09-09-2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesfl

Would a power broom help? At least the gravel is pushed to one side.

James

I tried a Gravely tractor with a broom normally used for sweeping off pea gravel. It bogs down almost immediately because of the weight of the ballast.

tekwrytr · 09-09-2008, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer

Use a gravel vacume contractor to suck up and dispose of the ballast.

R.K. Hydro-Vac continually sends me mailers.

Ed

Thanks, I'll contact them. I didn't realize ballast could be vacuumed!

mdshunk · 09-09-2008, 04:37 PM

Sounds like a job for a van load of guys from Labor Ready.

MALCO.New.York · 09-09-2008, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdshunk

Sounds like a job for a van load of guys from Labor Ready.

That is the most effective way. Scoop shovels, Wheelbarrows, a ramp, a chute and a dumpster. And a few Druggie Labor Ready "Employees".

Why Labor Ready? VOLT? Manpower?.......Liability and payroll!

**Ed the Roofer** · 09-09-2008, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tekwrytr

Thanks, I'll contact them. I didn't realize ballast could be vacuumed!

Also check with your local Roofing Union. In the Chicago area, the Rock Suckers are part of the Union and always try to offer cheaper prices for Cash for some reason.

All it is, is a big vacuum on a truck and long hoses with a big attachment. It's just a 2 man job.

Very inexpensive to farm out when needed.

If thay every suck ballast off of an old Trocal Roof, watch out for the broken shatered membrane that WILL occur.

Ed

Foz · 09-09-2008, 09:49 PM

The answer was..............R K Hydro-Vac! Used them many times!

builderr · 09-10-2008, 03:23 PM

you didn't mention the size of the ballast, or the method of fastening existing epdm roof. Assuming that you are going to add additional rigid insulation OVER the existing rubber, you will be re-using existing ballast or buying new?

**Ed the Roofer** · 09-10-2008, 04:53 PM

I do have to comment that your signature states:

EPDM Specialists

and you were not aware of how to efficiently remove ballast from a roof.

I guess all of your experience must actually be in spec writing and subcontracting, which is not a dig at you, but probably a more accurate title.

Your website seemed so knowledgable, that you should have known about this basic aspect.

Ed

coolflatroof · 09-10-2008, 07:37 PM

Ed is right... gravel vacuum is the most effective and least expensive method to remove ballast - for us at least:

We get guy from NJ to come to Mass and suck up all the gravel / ballast for about 40 cents / sq.ft. - the bigger the job, the less it costs.

so you pay $40 per sq. where as it would cost me in my estimation about $75/sq and my guys would hate me

since we don't employ labor-ready folks.

PS, we don't do this stuff often so prices may be different now...

good luck

K2 · 09-10-2008, 07:53 PM

Quote:

I can't believe that the most efficient way to do this is a group of banjo players.

Watch the Banjo player jokes. I got in trouble on this here forum for that. But you can tell them over on Steve Kaufman's site.

tekwrytr · 09-10-2008, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer

I do have to comment that your signature states:

EPDM Specialists

and you were not aware of how to efficiently remove ballast from a roof.

I guess all of your experience must actually be in spec writing and subcontracting, which is not a dig at you, but probably a more accurate title.

Your website seemed so knowledgable, that you should have known about this basic aspect.

Ed

Most of the ballasted roofs in this area are re-roofed piecemeal--move the ballast, overlay, move it back. It is labor intensive, to say the least. Ordinarily, the ballast is not removed--it is re-used. Because of the proliferation of relatively cheap, low-cost labor in this area, the "old-fashioned" way is the only one I have used to remove ballast. The process is identical to removing pea gravel, except ballast is bigger.

Because labor is so cheap, any process that uses vacuum equipment must be cost effective; if hand methods cost $10,000 and the lowest bid I can get for vacuum removal is $15,000, that extra $5000 is going in my pocket, not someone else's. If typical rates here for commercial work were anywhere near what they are in some of the postings, vacuum removal would be a no-brainer. Unless it is cost-effective, I am not particualrly interested.

My question was on technique. In particular, some method that is as cost effective (or more so) than commonly used hand methods (scoop shovels, wheelbarrows, chutes, and demolition boxes) but faster and easier. I am currently getting bids from a couple of different roof vacuum services (local), but my impression is that vacuuming is more appropriate for complex, multi-level decks with difficult access, and is not cost effective for the type of roofs I normally do.

As for the most efficient way to remove ballast from the roof, I do not think vacuuming--unless it is dirt cheap, and labor in your area is overpriced--is the most efficient way to remove ballast. Easy, perhaps, but not efficient.

I don't know what you pay for ballast removal in your area, but in the Twin Cities it is readily available for $37.50 a square, including demolition boxes, with $30-35 available when work is slow. This isn't rocket science, folks. We are talking about scooping up some rock and dumping it off a one story roof. Complete tearoff of a single layer builtup and gravel on this type of project is only worth $50 a square here, regardless of the prices quoted by some people who may be more familiar with residential work.

In order to be "efficient," I would need someone to bring in their equipment, vacuum the ballast, and get 250 square done for under $9000. I have one sub that will do it for under $8000 if I want to wait three weeks until he has a crew available.

If someone is experienced enough with ballast removal to give me a ballpark idea of cost, I am more than willing to amend my views. At the moment, I am more interested in faster and better, and vacuuming looks to me like an inefficient use of resources. That is, unless they can beat $35 a square that includes disposal.

Thanks

tekwrytr · 09-10-2008, 11:34 PM

Great! I am one of those ADD folks who can only understand things prefixed with dollar signs. I would be happier if the price were less, but 40 cents a foot is at least worth inquiring further. From my initial contact with the sales rep (today), my impression is that pea gravel is cheap to vacuum, but ballast is a big deal--no price quotes until the arm-twister looks over the project to see how much can be milked from it. Not even a ballpark.

Thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolflatroof

Ed is right... gravel vacuum is the most effective and least expensive method to remove ballast - for us at least:

We get guy from NJ to come to Mass and suck up all the gravel / ballast for about 40 cents / sq.ft. - the bigger the job, the less it costs.

so you pay $40 per sq. where as it would cost me in my estimation about $75/sq and my guys would hate me

since we don't employ labor-ready folks.

PS, we don't do this stuff often so prices may be different now...

good luck

tekwrytr · 09-10-2008, 11:42 PM

Well, I can see how some might consider the reference ethnically insensitive, but it definitely is not. It refers specifically to the slang term for scoop shovels on the west coast, "banjos." It was not used in any other context, and if anyone found it offensive, I want to assure them that no offense was intended. In fact, until your comment, I didn't realize that "banjo player" referred to anything other than a roofer with a scoop shovel. It was often used in reference to me, because I spent the first 2 or 3 years of my roofing career (many years ago) with a "banjo" in hand.

Thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by K2

Watch the Banjo player jokes. I got in trouble on this here forum for that. But you can tell them over on Steve Kaufman's site.

Renegade · 09-11-2008, 12:00 AM

bah, never mind

You should know more about this than me

**Ed the Roofer** · 09-11-2008, 06:30 AM

Heck, I still don't know what the racial slight of using the term "Banjo Player" indicates.

I must be slow today.

Wheres my Coffee icon? I need it bad.

Last Ballasted River Rock I had vacuumed off for me was around $ 25.00 per square on a 250 square 5 story office building with an original Trocal Roof membrane on it. That was more than 10 years ago though.

Ed

K2 · 09-11-2008, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tekwrytr

Well, I can see how some might consider the reference ethnically insensitive, but it definitely is not. It refers specifically to the slang term for scoop shovels on the west coast, "banjos." It was not used in any other context, and if anyone found it offensive, I want to assure them that no offense was intended. In fact, until your comment, I didn't realize that "banjo player" referred to anything other than a roofer with a scoop shovel. It was often used in reference to me, because I spent the first 2 or 3 years of my roofing career (many years ago) with a "banjo" in hand.

Thanks

Sorry, I thought you were a Blue Grasser making fun of Banjo player which every grasser does. Even the banjo players tell banjo jokes. I guess you had to be there. ... Scoop shovels huh? Sounds like it could be material for some more banjo jokes.

tekwrytr · 09-11-2008, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K2

Sorry, I thought you were a Blue Grasser making fun of Banjo player which every grasser does. Even the banjo players tell banjo jokes. I guess you had to be there. ... Scoop shovels huh? Sounds like it could be material for some more banjo jokes.

Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was new to roofing, it was a common sight for bored roofers to imitate banjo players by "strumming" their scoop shovels, held as if playing a banjo. It was such a common sight that--along with the term "banjo player"--I just assumed everyone used the same reference.

Thanks