Approval/denial Of Roofing Materials - Questions

jmasters

Hmm... don't know if this was posted before. It barked at my use of a URL in my posting... Let me try again.

Hi,

I'm on a board for a community that has some fairly stringent CC&R's (Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions).

Because of the upscale nature of the community, roofing materials have typically been wood shake and tile, with asphalt shingles being excluded because of their perceived lesser value in maintaining property values.

A homeowner has approached our design review board requesting that they be allowed to put on a stone coated metal roofing tile. They were denied by teh design review board, citing that it's really just asphalt shingle, but with a metal backing. The owners have appealed to the board, of which I'm a member.

I'd like to know what pro's/con's others have had with this type of roofing.

A web site for this specific manufacturer is Gerard USA at gerardusa dot com (it won't let me post a U R L )

I took a look at a neighboring community, which is similarly upscale and talked to a few homeowners. They seemed to be pleased with it, despite the higher cost over stone tile. A fellow board member talked with someone and said that they had a pest control person damage their stone coated metal roof by walking on it. A promotional DVD shows firemen standing on this type of roof, although admittedly, the entire roof is sagging under their weight as they do so, suggesting that there's not a lot of non-moveable surface to press against, and there is a lattice put on before this roof material is put on, which will have some gaps between the supports where conceivably someone could damage a roof.

But what about durability? (we get 100+ degree F days here) Sound in heavy rain? How well does it hold up in wind? We get some days where we get a good 30-45 mph sustained wind from the valleys. Does it shed the asphalt material over time? How long has it lasted?

I'm interested in hearing more in the cons area, as there's always promotional materials that give all the positives, but I want to understand teh negatives and weigh them too.

I'm also concerned over fire rating. Our county requires Class A rated roofing. From other research I've done, while metal would be class A, the underlayment could affect the overall rating of the roofing system. From Gerard's web site, they mention that it could be class A/B/C. Does anybody have specs on what constitutes a Class A installation over prior roofing (if it exists? Perhaps a tear-off is required.)

I also just found some commentary by a firefighter over some difficulties in fighting fires with metal roof homes. Since our meeting is being held at the firehouse tonight, I suppose I can get first hand commentary, but then again, to my knowledge, we don't have any stone coated metal roofing in our community - which is why we're holding our meeting.


I apologize for my lateness in posting this question. I just found this site. We're deciding on this tonight.

Thanks,

Justin

Glasshousebltr

Sorry, I really don't know squat about the product.

However, I do think another of your considerations should be whether or not it's fair to tell a fella what he can and can't put on his home.

I realize lines have to be drawn, but we have to be fair in those lines and personal property value greed should play as little part as possible.

Bob

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Bob

jmasters

I don't want to tread into this area, as it's somewhat emotional at different levels. Besides that, we had the famous "yellow house" issue a few years ago, for which I ran for the elected position to overturn some of these overly 'nazi-esque' folks.

But the basic elements of CC&R's are that they are a contract between homeowners within a defined area to agree to certain uses/designs of homes affecting the overall saleability of homes around them.

In this instance, they have given authority for roofing decisions to our design review board, and defines adequate roofing as meeting a 'harmony' criteria, which is rather subjective. I'm trying to approach this with not only harmony in mind, but in technical areas that should be among those each home owner should be aware of in deciding whether or not to go with this roofing that is being proposed for acceptance.

I have to also admit that when you had a link to glass houses, I didn't know if you were being figurative in not throwing stones at people in glass houses, or if you were advocating building glass houses (I was thinking of whether I'd want to see a naked neighbor traipsing through a glass home. )

But it did elicit a chuckle.

Thanks for your reply, Bob!

Justin

Glasshousebltr

I guess that really depends on the neighbor.

Bob

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Bob

Teetorbilt

Sometimes you really have to beat it into their heads.

My mother moved into one of these neighborhoods and caught a bunch of flack for installing hurricane shutters. And a customer of mine (from the Keys) was almost sued for putting a metal roof on their house where most of the other homes were shakes.

It's amazing how much common sense a couple of hurricanes can pound into people. Shutters are still popping up in Mom's place and a lot of those shakes that landed in Lake Okeechobee were replaced with metal.

Build your case and present a good argument.

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mdshunk

My simple observation...

This gravel coated roof tiles still look like regular asphalt shingles. Regardless of whether they are a high end product, they still have the look of the lower end product. Looks and appearances is what these CC&R's are supposed to uphold. These gravel coated tiles look like a regular old architectural asphalt shingle. If I was you, it would be .

oldgoat

From the pictures I see on the web sites they look as good as the tile roofs. I would think that the best place to find a answer is with going to communities nearby that already have them installed. That way you could see how they work in the area you are and see them in person. Maybe the contractor that would be putting them on would be able to take the board to a few places and show you. For me if it has the looks that the neighborhood wants, but is safer and better insurance rates it would be OK. I believe that you have to keep a open mind to new products and not dismis them offhand. If you can find a couple of places that have them installed you can also compare how the property values would be affected by using the different roofing.

jmasters

We didn't take the vote, as there were some legal issues that popped up between the time I posted and our meeting (potential conflict of interest by a member of our board who is a real estate attorney), and potential lawsuits under interpretation one way or the other on the vote. We'll get our legal counsel on Dec. 8, and make a final decision on Jan 13 on the appeal process. The broader decision over whether to allow new materials in is going to be a much longer process I think.

Our design review board gave 9 reasons why they thought it wasn't appropriate as a potential roofing material, but most of it was based on equating stone coated steel to asphalt shingles and going with that stream of logic. But I had to point out a few inconsistencies in their logic in areas of harmony and consistency of shade when there are numerous different colors of stone/concrete tile within the village.

I queried the audience of about 50-60 people to see if any of them had gone out and looked at houses mentioned in the letter sent out to them. None had. There's a lot of fear by some board members over being sued. They would rather the folks amend their CC&R's to specifically allow this material if they want it.

I think the people want options, and the design review committee wants only stone and shake.

Well, another month and a half of further wrestling with this issue...

More comments are welcome from any who have experience with this material in the field!

Thanks,

Justin

Glasshousebltr

Ok guys lets vote for him.

One for let em in. It's a freakin free country.........or....supposed to be.

Bob

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Bob

Grumpy

Such is the life of living within an association. If the fella knew about the restrictions and regulations going into the purchase, it's a little late to complain now. I understand the reasoning behind the rules, essentially so someone doesn't paint their house purple and lower everyone's property values or change the overall appearance of the subdivision.

JMasters, I was going to answer some of your questions but since you stated the mention of lawyers and law suits I am going to bow out. Lawyers are the Devil's angels IMO.

copusbuilder

Sure sounds like a fancy way of saying I don't know?
Just a joke Grumpy!! Really

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jmasters

The basis of one potential issue is with a conflict with one board of director member being a real estate attorney. You might remember my mentioning a yellow house issue earlier. This same attorney came on the design review board, then promptly got off, took on the case before the board and sued the board.

Although, I have to question whether a member of the design review board isn't in conflict himself due to his architectural business and that he might be hurt business-wise, if he were to be deciding on this issue.

The other potential lawsuit will be based upon someone who doesn't like the addition of the stone coated tile or someone who wants it. Either case, you're damned if you do or damned if you don't. Someone will be upset.

So, please, comment away.

I abhor lawyers with the best of you. :

Justin

pgriz

I don't sell or install stone covered steel shingles, (I specialize in aluminum), but I've seen them installed, and I see them all over. There are a number of manufacturers making them (Gerard is one, but there is also Decra, Duralock, Atas, etc.). With the profiling that they have, they mimic (more or less successfully) products like wood shake, clay and ceramic tile, and slate. Almost all systems (with the exception of the Decra-shingle product) require a base of strapping onto which the shingles and panels are affixed. In terms of appearance, IMO they don't look like asphalt shingles at all, and I usually see them on high-end homes. In terms of long-term durability, I have seen only one damaged (by falling ice after the 1998 ice storm), and then the damage was cosmetic. There are issues with all granulated products supporting algae and moss growth by allowing a place for dirt to accumulate, and for the plants to have an place to "grab-on" to. However, I would think that pressure washing should clean this up well, as the granules are generally very well adhered. As for the quality of the installations, that's up to the installer team. I'm fond of reminding people that most of the quality of the roof comes from the installation, so that's where I would focus my attention.

If you have a roofer who has proposed this product to your association, he or she should be able to bring in help from the parent company (Gerard USA in this case) to deal with the technical issues and also show examples of installations in other parts of the country. Stone-coated metal has been known for a long time and is installed all over the world.

You raised the issue of fire. Since metal roofs are non-combustible, the real issue may be that they prevent or impede the firemen being able to access certain parts of the roof structure to deal with the fire underneath. In this respect, shingle systems are probably easier to deal with than the long panels, the shingles are in smaller units. However, since fortunately I have no experience in this area, I would defer to real firemen. Again, I would think that Gerard, due to their world-wide presence, would have come across this issue, and can shed some light on it.

metalroofer

Pgriz mentioned fire codes and such so that's taken care of. I think the stone coated steel looks very much like cheaper regular shingles too, you would get a nix from my vote. Now the shake look-a-like roof is very convincing and looks expensive (and it is). What's the problem here? Sounds like you're trying to knock a square peg into round hole!
Fugetaboutit, go with one of the other (many/better) choices out there.

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AaronB.

All I know is that not ALL stone coated steel tiles look like regular asphalt shingles, if any even do.

Lets not start talking if we dont know what we're talking about, ok, guys?

I dont know jack else about them. Pgriz does, though.

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Free roof inspections within 12 miles of our locale.

Grumpy

I've seent he decra, and thought hey probably use a similiar method of coating grade asphalt to adhere the granuals to the metal, I agree that given a broad perspective of the roof they do not look like asphalt shingles. If you were to look at a close up and not see shape or texture I can see where anyone can get confused.

I am on the board for my own condominium association. I have different views of priorities than most of the other board members. For example spending $$$ to place sod under pine trees whcih any intelligent person will tell you, the sod will die in a few years due to lack of sunlight and acidity of the pine needles... but I was out voted. Or how about the time a bush died and their resolution was to cut the other bush in half and try to transplan the amputated portion... Hmmm now we have two dead bushes, at least they match!

red_cedar

I am fairly familar with many of the granular coated metal roofing products.
Though I have personal reservations about them , they can be a long lasting product. Installation is the real key with a metal roof.

In real verus perceived value, the wood shake would be the worst. ( though I hate to say it )

As mentioned above, the granular coated products are found on many higher end homes. In the deep profiled metal products care and a little understanding must be taken, when walking on them.

As far as fire and fireman, I believe I read somewhere that problems where being encounted when fires occured in dwellings that a metal roof was put on over wood framing that was put over an old shake roof.

There is also available in the granular types, a baked on textured powered coated paint finish available. Top self products.

I realy dont believe the metal roofing industry as a whole is trying to provide products that do not hold up.

IMO

AaronB.

The stone coated steel shingles I have seen are not granules like on an asphalt shingle, but more like a quarter or maybe even less grit than them.

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Seamless Industrial and Commercial Roofing Systems, Residential Repair. For Those That Demand Quality!
Free roof inspections within 12 miles of our locale.

metalroofer

AaronB, please go to www.gerardusa.com/photo.htm#shingle-photos scroll down to guardian steel shingles. Please let me know what you think they look like? Met.

P.S. Shingles are a relatively new creation. They go hand in hand with our disposable society. Before shingles there was clay tile, various metals, various stone, all long lasting stuff. Shingles attraction is that they are cheap. I still want to know why anyone would do steel look-a-like shingle?

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AaronB.

I think they look like wood shake facsimiles.

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http://www.roseroofing.net/
Seamless Industrial and Commercial Roofing Systems, Residential Repair. For Those That Demand Quality!
Free roof inspections within 12 miles of our locale.