6yr Old Certainteeds And Shingle Brand Preference

jstrand23

I have an estimate out on a 260 sq hail job to tear off and replace. I usually put down Certainteed shingles and like the product. I have put on many Certainteeds and also have completed Certainteeds Master shingle applicator program. The old roof that will be torn off is 6 year old Certainteed Landmark 25's. They are the architectural style that fit together like a puzzle on the ends of the shingles. There has been numerous problems with the roof since the old shingles were put on, mostly being wind damage. The original roof was roofed in the winter(Minnesota winter), which I believe was to blame for part of the wind damage problem. From what I have seen while patching/fixing the roof previously, I have seen no evidence of hand sealing. I also have noted that a lot of these shingles have the nails placed above the tar line. The tar line on these shingles is on the face of the shingle. I believe that this is wrong placement of the nails as the nails only penetrate one shingle instead of two with the nail below the tar line.
Anyway, the people want to know about other shingle brands and are scared of Certainteeds now with the problems they have had in the past. The questions I have are:
Did Certainteed have problems with sealing in their shingles 6 yrs ago or does this sound like installer error?
Is there a website that I can compare shingle problems of the major brands, Certainteed, Gaf/Elk, Tamko, Iko, etc
What brand shingles do you use and why? I know this question has been answered and I will search the threads for this, but if you are answering the other questions, why not answer this one also. Thanks

Jason
Strand Carpentry

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Jason
Strand Carpentry
Glyndon, MN

Slyfox

Sounds to me like the H/O got a raw deal on the roofer they used 6 yrs ago and i would make that clear to them by explaining the location of fasteners or rather lack of location because with what you said they were poorly fastened.
I personaly am a firm beliver that Certainteed and Tamko shingles are the bottom of the line as far as self sealing but if you install them properly they will with stand the lifespand exspected of them.


I sell OC, GAF / Elk as often as possible myself.

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biged04

I also think it was the installers fault with the nails too high, seen the same deal around here in TN too, but since then certain-teed has changed their sealant on their shingles, man thats some sticky stuff now..... very little heat or sunshine and they stick together like they are glued......I am like you and am a firm believer in certain-teed 1st and tamko 2nd....... after that, your on your own with what ever bad choice you make. OC, GAF and elk ??? not me brother..... I know theres not as many standard 3 tab shingles put on as there once was, but you try some of those "other brands" against certainteed's 3 tab shingles and lets see whos water bonds come out straighter from top to bottom after nailing on a 5 or 6 lines of shingles. not trying to start an argument here, just my .02 cents......
( from a full time, poor ole roofer since 1980, with my dad whos been doing roofing full time since 1973 )

Jake Stevens

Sounds like poor installation. We use to use a lot of CertainTeed shingles but about 7 or 8 years ago we had several homes that had a lot of Asphalt coming off at the eve's where people had use roof rakes. They told me it was not there problem. I re-did the eves on three houses out of my own pocket and had no problems with the new shingles changed to IKO shingles and in the last 7 years I only had one job that when bad and they paid me to re-do the job.

dougger222

I'm gonna go on a hunch here but I think the shingles are Certainteed New Horizons. If you say the ends are like a puzzle that's one indication. The New Horizons are known to have two defects.
The first one is wind related. In a five year spread put down several hundred New Horizons roofs for builders and the ones in high wind areas had blow offs every few years. Upon inspection of the roof it was found quite often that were the shingles butt up the tar didn't seal down as well as say the middle of the shingle. All fasteners were installed to spec, just under the tar line.
The second problem is the areas related to the double application were after only a few years the top layer of granuals fall off exposing black and then after time the original layer of granuals. One adjuster told me that these spots were like this on instalation day but there not, they happen with time and I think the sun.

Certainteed at one time was paying for hand sealing the roof and I've also seen them pay for the shingles or offer free Landmarks as a replacement. There is a class action law suit in the works with these shingles. Some inexperianced adjusters will see the spots on the double application areas and circle them as hail damage. In all reality the New Horizons actually hold up rather well to hail that would damage even laminate shingles, just like the old Horizons. What I look for is the ridge and vents on New Horizon roofs.

I've had excellent luck with Certainteed Landmarks and since 3M jumped on board in recent years improving not only the tar but adding the algea warranty they've become top of the line laminate shingles.

Haven't put down a New Horizon on a roof I sold in about 5 years and since then have installed around 250+ roofs with the Landmarks and had two blow offs both with the old style shingle with the tar on the face. One was on a barn which was a roof over on top of shakes (wifes uncles roof, wouldn't tear off). The one shingle blew off on the area of barn that was pretty much straight up and down. The other blow off was a roof over on a 4/12 on a 200ft bluff on the Mississippi River. Off the back of the house it was a 4 story drop to the ground and then it went straight down to the river.

jstrand23

Dougger, pm me sometime. I'd like to know more about these horizon shingles. do the horizons look like architectural shingles? If so, these are probably them. I took off two shingles with intentions to send into Certainteed but haven't yet. I to like the Landmarks, but since this roof, the Owners are completely against putting certainteeds back onto the roof.

Jason
dnartsnosaj on msn/aol
or jkjstrand on aol

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Jason
Strand Carpentry
Glyndon, MN

Ed the Roofer

Click on some or all of the links from this search for more information about defective Certainteed shingles and class action lawsuits against them.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...action+lawsuit

Ed

Slyfox

Altho i disagree with you about OC 3-tabs "i would say there as good as CT"
GAF 3-tabs i'll take your word because i can't even remeber the last time i used them, if Elk has a 3-tab i have never used them far as i know.
No less than 90% of the work i do are Demensionals and all 3 of thiers stand up to and in many ways outstand Certianteeds.

Not arguen here either fellow roofer, just chattin.

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Ed the Roofer

Here is another link to a highly informative site regarding roofing defects and class action lawsuits ans tons of other stuff.

http://www.inspect-ny.com/roof/RoofW....htm#companies

Ed

dougger222

Last week installed the new GAF/ELK laminates on a 48sq garage, that's right a 48sq garage! In one day I got more slivers than in one year installing Landmarks.

The package should read, "When installing these shingles always were safety glass AND gloves"!!!

The only thing I liked about the new GAF's is they weren't as wavy out of the package as the Landmarks. The shingles themselves seemed cheaply made and was suprised how easy they cut compared to Landmarks and how easy it was to tear off the double laminate section. The shingles were pretty square though. From time to time run into some pretty crooked end Landmarks which gets frustrating.

What I also noticed was it seemed the middle laminate section is stronger in the Landmarks than the Timberlines.

Keep in mind 3M works with Certainteed or at least did a couple years ago when they worked on the Landmark line. I've done four roofs in the past two years for 3M bigwigs and it's an easy sale with Landmarks.

dougger222

Also keep in mind all shingle manufacturers have problems from time to time. There are many aspects that make up a shingle and if one is slightly off it will cause problems usually years after being installed. During a typical shingle run over say a years time not every shingle will be made with the axact same specs. If the manufacturer catches it in time the general public will be saved a warranty claim.

I dump my shingle debris in Shakopee, MN near the Certainteed plan and over the past 10 years have seen a lot of dumping from the factory. 6-10 years ago it wasn't uncommon to unload a trailer of debris and see a full size semi trailer dump a load of eye lines. Occasionaly you would see them dump a whole load of solid sheets of shingles uncut. On about 10 occasions I seen them dump entire loads of ice and water shield with no boxes and no tubes. The part I dump won't accept paper or cardboard. About a year ago came across some really slippery Winterguard around the time they were dumping whole loads. Not yet to see one load of junk Landmarks make it to the landfill from the plant.

Wonder how many rolls of 65ft Winterguard they dumped at a pop? The packer operator said they had dumped around 10 loads in a weeks time!

I know several people who work at the Shakopee plant and they like there job and like their pay. One's been with them for over 25 years and he gets one shingle load per year for free.

MJW

Gotta be Horizons. Bad shingles and even worse installation.

Dougger, I also have noticed some Landmarks with un-square edges, but not lately.

The new shingles shouldn't be wavy at all. That is mainly from sitting in the yard to long. Hardest part in the winter is getting them not frozen together.

If they are a Certainteed Horizon shingle, you may be able to get the HO a claim on the shingles and get them Landmarks for a reduced price. That way you can put on a good shingle instead of switching brands. We normally give the customer what they want within reason, but who has to warranty it, right???.....

jstrand23

Are the Horizons 3 tab shingles? These are definitely architectural shingles and probably Landmark 25's. Thanks for all the replies. I am gonna send in a couple of shingles to Certainteed and then wait the 6-26 weeks for a response.

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Jason
Strand Carpentry
Glyndon, MN

MJW

With what you describe they are either New horizons or old (real old) Timberlines.

Horizons used to be a 3-tab, but recently are a full shingle. They were never a multi-layer shingle. A roofer would know what they are.

dougger222

My guess would be about 10 years ago the Horizon was made into the New Horizon. Then there's the Classic Horizons which I think they still made up until only a few years ago but I may be wrong. Gotta hail job that had Classic Horizons installed 7 years ago and tore one off that had the Classic Horizons installed 9 years ago. The home owner pulled two bundles out of the basement and they read Classic Horizon. Some Certainteed brochures have shown the Classic Horizons in recent years, which of course is a three tab.

Timberline and Landmark both used to be English in size. Timberline switched first and Landmark about 5-6 years back.

dougger222

If the ends are straight their a Landmark if the plastic on the back says it is. If the ends are notched their Hew Horizon same thing with the plastic. A couple years ago I seen Menards advertising a shingle very similiar to New Horizons right down to the notches and the six colors they sold were the same colors as Certainteeds.

MJW

Timberlines also used to have the notches on their english size shingles.

Being he said they look like Landmarks, it leads me to believe they are timberlines.

I don't think the plastic strip said certainteed on it that long ago. Not sure when they started that.

dougger222

You may be right about the strips not saying Certainteed but they had 1234 and a pyramid logo on them for several years.

The poster from MN mentioned hail job tear off. That being said if they get any money from Certainteed and it doesn't go to the insurance company that would be insurance fraud. Since it sounds like the insurance company is paying for the replacement any money paid by the manufacturer would be the insurance companies. Even a couple dollar per square rebate should technically go to the insurance company.

What indication do you have that they are Certainteeds?