15# Felt Or 30?

 
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Old 03-02-2006, 08:19 AM   #1
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15# Felt Or 30?


I try to sell #30 felt on all my jobs. Gives me a way to come down on the price if needed from the original estimate but 30 is much safer to work on.

thoughts?
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Old 03-02-2006, 08:46 AM   #2
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Re: 15# Felt Or 30?


I personally rather use #30 even if i absorb the cost which you really dont
$70 material difference. My point really is using 15 on any pitch is a safty issue in my opinion. Don't procecute me people... just had little incedents
were the felt rips slightly while walking on it, which results in the sloppest workers slipping or sliding. I feel since Ive switch to using #30 I really haven't
had any slipping. I also feel #30 sticks to the ply much better.

Just my 2cents

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Old 03-02-2006, 09:01 AM   #3
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Re: 15# Felt Or 30?


30# for sure. No doubt about it. On steep roofs the 15 rips easily under foot. On lower slopes I feel more comfortable with the thicker felt.

If $100 (the typical upgrade cost to go from 15 to 30) is going to blow a sale for you, you are doing something wrong. Explain to the customer that 30 is much better than 15 and why, and they will be happy to spend an extra $100.
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Old 03-02-2006, 09:59 AM   #4
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Re: 15# Felt Or 30?


I agree, with the above posts.

#30 all the way.
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Old 03-02-2006, 10:36 AM   #5
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Re: 15# Felt Or 30?


OK, I like 30# also, but sell me the upgrade, since I am a cheap homeowner.
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Old 03-02-2006, 11:20 AM   #6
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Re: 15# Felt Or 30?


Ok Aaron, I'll sell ya the upgrade but it's not an upgrade it's standard. First off I have to set the stage... talking about underlayment is the 3rd step in my presentation process, first I show them how we protect their house before tearing off, then I show them how we replace all the rotten wood.

Ok now onto the underlayment portion of the presentation. Please note I do not recite ALL this, but here it is canned nicely for you.

Quote:
... and after we have fixed all the rotten wood on your roof we have a good surface to begin roofing. The roofing process doesn't start with shingles, first we have some underlayments we need to lay down. We install ice and water shield in all the problem areas, which is your gutter lines, valleys, and any areas where there is to be metal flashing, like chimneys shylights and where the roof meets the wall. After we have installed the ice shield int he problem areas we will install a felt paper to cover the remaining roof surface so that in no place will your shingles come in contact with the wood.

There are a few kinds of felt papers on the market and some people may think they are the same, but they are not. We use the 30# felt paper because I feel it is the best product for your roof. It is thicker and heavier than the alternative 15# so if water ever gets under your shingles it has to work extra hard to get through the felt. 15# is easy to rip underfoot when installing the new roof system and ripped felt paper is useless regardless of weight. There are some synthetic felt papers on the market and we haven't yet made the switch because it seems the products are being re-engineered every few years and aren't yet stable. We stick with the tried and true 30# because it's the best for your house.

Now that we have the underlayments in place let's talk about the shingles...
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Old 03-02-2006, 11:37 AM   #7
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Re: 15# Felt Or 30?


#15 for me. While I agree it can tear easier I put enough fasteners or enough jack boards to make it a non issue. The concern I have with #30 stems from a couple Capcod cedar tearoffs, where a bit of condensation in a bitter cold winter caused the #30 to buckle the shingles ( 3- tab) This was several years ago but I'v been gun shy since about #30. At the time, again many years ago, I spoke to tech support at Tamko, Certainteed, and one other manufacturer that escapes me, and the opinion of all was the only advantage to the #30 would be if you were going to leave felt exposed to the weather for several days.

In my opinion, once the shingles are installed the type of underlayment is irrelevent. (assuming asphalt shingles)
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Old 03-02-2006, 02:34 PM   #8
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Re: 15# Felt Or 30?


River rat if condensation was allowed to build up then ventilation was the problem, not the felt.

I think you may be right, in a perfect world, once the shingles are installed the felt is irrelevant. However the world is not perfect and shingles can be lost (for various reasons) leaving felt exposed. This is another reason I like the 30.
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Old 03-02-2006, 04:59 PM   #9
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Re: 15# Felt Or 30?


I also agree with the posts about the 30, but I don't use it. No reason really, just don't. I like the GAF Shingle Mate the best. It is lightweight and doesn't tear. The Certainteed stuff is nice also, but it has alot of fiberglass exposed on it. Both lay just as good or better than #30.
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Old 03-02-2006, 05:41 PM   #10
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Re: 15# Felt Or 30?


When shinglemate first came out their biggest claim was no wrinkles no wrinkles. Well they were comparing it to regular 15# not 30#. I think the shingle mate wrinkles more than regular 30# but much less than regular 15#. The shingle mate is tougher than the regular felt papers for sure, because it is fiberglass reinforced.
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Old 03-02-2006, 08:06 PM   #11
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Re: 15# Felt Or 30?


When we roof we usually lay felt as we shingle. We do this because it is just a quicker way to get the felt down. A few staples and then we start laying shingles right over it and that holds it down pretty good. It seems foolish to run all over the roof with felt, then have to walk on it (and it always tears...)

We rarely ever leave a roof with just felt overnight. We always use #15 felt which is vulnerable to wind damage. But now I see the wisdom of #30 felt both as a sales tool and as it is just a better product.

Given the way we put the felt down, we always get the question, "what does the felt do exactly?"

Personally, I don't think felt does a thing once the shingles are installed. (I am talking about over plywood or osb. I do understand that #30 felt will span gaps in plank sheathing.) I seem to recall reading somewhere that roofing manufacturers do acknowledge that felt doesn't do much under the shingles other than provide another layer of protection. But the felt gets poked with a lot of holes once the shingles are down and doesn't seal like ice and water shield.

So, to the roofers, what does the felt do?
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Old 03-02-2006, 09:22 PM   #12
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Re: 15# Felt Or 30?


Also keeps the shingles from sticking to the roof for the next replacement 15-20yrs down the road.
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Old 03-03-2006, 12:03 AM   #13
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Re: 15# Felt Or 30?


15 pound here. 30 pound gets to oily in the summer and smears to easily. 15 pounds with enough tacks or boards is plenty good enough. Twice as much work carrying paper with 30 too.
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Old 03-03-2006, 07:35 AM   #14
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Re: 15# Felt Or 30?


Tarpaper used to be used by the framers. They would dry the house in until the roofer got there. Now they don't do that anymore. Same thing with the house wrap. Some framers install it and some don't.
The tarpaper will help a little if shingles get blown off, but not for long. It also makes a little air space between the shingles and the sheathing, so the shingles can dry out.

If you are depending on your tarpaper to keep water out, then your roofing system isn't working correctly.I see alot of people running iceshield and tarpaper up the walls and around corners. It is completely pointless most of the time. If installing flashing, the iceshield or house wrap should be on the wall and on top of your flashing. The shingles and flashing should never leak. Most of the time the wall leaks from wind driven rain and goes behind the flashing because the sider has the tyvek behind the flashing.
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Old 03-03-2006, 09:02 AM   #15
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Re: 15# Felt Or 30?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Hughes
I try to sell #30 felt on all my jobs. Gives me a way to come down on the price if needed from the original estimate but 30 is much safer to work on.

thoughts?
30# All the way 15# felt feels like kids construction paper I try to avoid it as much as possible
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Old 03-03-2006, 09:35 AM   #16
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Re: 15# Felt Or 30?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MJW
If you are depending on your tarpaper to keep water out, then your roofing system isn't working correctly.I see alot of people running iceshield and tarpaper up the walls and around corners. It is completely pointless most of the time. If installing flashing, the iceshield or house wrap should be on the wall and on top of your flashing. The shingles and flashing should never leak. Most of the time the wall leaks from wind driven rain and goes behind the flashing because the sider has the tyvek behind the flashing.
I'm not depending on my tar paper to keep my water out but as stated in a previous post shingles can get lost, perhaps because of high winds or maybe a treee branch scraping against the roof. I like knowing I have a good underlayment if that happens... and those things do happen, and since I warrant the roof for 10 years I have to be damned sure I am using good quality materials.

In regards to the ice shield being used as flashing. I do this. It is a secondary flashing if the metal flashing were ever to fail. You and I both know that one of the first places we look on a roof when someone complains of a leak is at the flashings. I want to know that if those flashings were ever to fail I have a layer of redundancy underneath to keep the water out. It's really just cheap insurance.

Also as stated above I have a 10 year warranty on my roofs and there is no profit in a call back. Going the extra mile can be marked up to the customer at the time of purchase, fixing a mistake later down the road can only go to your bottom line.

Is my method of using 30# and ice shield as a secondary flashing over kill? Yeah you are probably right, but it lets me and my customers sleep at night and we have had very few call backs.
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Old 03-03-2006, 10:25 AM   #17
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Re: 15# Felt Or 30?


You dont really warrant damage, though, do you?
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Old 03-03-2006, 08:26 PM   #18
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Re: 15# Felt Or 30?


either 30# or shinglemate, usually more times than not shinglemate, never 15# and i explain why in my demo as grump does. I sell the quality of every oart of the roofing, the cost difference is mininimal ,and i tell customers straight out that if it costs me an extra $300 to do your roof right, than that is what i am going to do, i am not going to try and ut costs to save you $300 (or whatever the diff is), people really respect that , and if you cant get the few hundered dollars extra for the proper materials, you never had the sale in the first place, you were just order taking IMO.
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Old 03-03-2006, 08:44 PM   #19
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Re: 15# Felt Or 30?


"i tell customers straight out that if it costs me an extra $300 to do your roof right, than that is what i am going to do,"

That implies that to use #15 is to do your roof "wrong". I dispute that and ask you to back up your "demo" with legitimate studies, codes, or manufacturers specs.
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Old 03-04-2006, 08:57 AM   #20
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Re: 15# Felt Or 30?


Does anybody remember when 15# felt was 15lb. and used for asphalt shingles, and 30# was 30lb. and used for tile or slate?

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