Structural Advice

KentWhitten

This is my manifesto on structural advice.

Here is Nathan's disclaimer. I'm curious how many actually have read this.

With that stated, I'd like to add more to the discussion.

I have been a framing contractor for 25 years and I have not yet seen it all. When I think I do, I drive by a jobsite where the framing contractor has neglected to read the truss specs carefully for piggy back trusses and are lacking proper bracing. It is my duty as someone who knows better to stop in and remind them to carefully read the truss specs on bracing and how their ignorance at erecting the system will fail and possibly kill someone.

I've seen many threads here asking for structural advice and personally, it's not any of my business to give out structural advice. We owe it to the people who request this here to steer them in the right direction and that direction is straight to an engineer, architect, or lumber yard who has a qualified, in-house engineer who will have a stamp that can and will stamp a set of plans for you.

I am a framer, not a structural engineer. I don't design structures. If you are a responsible structural engineer, you already realize that unless you are personally standing right there looking at the particular situation, you would know better than to respond with "you need this size" because YOU DON'T KNOW THE WHOLE SITUATION and will be liable for structural advice!

When it comes to framing, I am responsible for putting the structural members in the place where the architect, engineer, or designer tells me to put them. Period. That is my liability. It is also my responsibility if I put something in that is sadly undersized. As a framing contractor, I must possess general knowledge of what is needed structurally for the building. This is not a business trade that you just pick up a hammer and say "I'm now going to frame homes for a living" If something is undersized, a call to the structural designer is needed.

Floor joists? That is a gray area. You can easily find span charts in the code book and online. However, youstill need to know what your local codes are for your situation. Same with your wood species. Same with the modulus of elasticity. Same with the deflection.

To someone who responds to a question, are you going to take full responsibility for someone's floor being bouncy? Are you going to place your signature on a piece of paper saying that it is right for the situation and if something fails or isn't satisfactory, then you will bear full responsibility?

Rafters? No. Because you will have no idea what the snow loads are, or what the roof is really carrying, or what the local code says you need for live and dead loads or what is REALLY going on at the specific site and situation. These loads differ from community to community. Where I live, oceanside is lower than inland. Mountains, different even still. Ours is 40#, the next town over is 60#

Beams? Not a chance. There is no possible way for anyone to be able to tell someone else online what their exact conditions are.

Please stop giving advice on what you think "should be good enough". If you are not doing the calcs for the OP and giving them your state issued stamp of approval on a set of plans, stop giving this advice before you kill someone. This is not a game. This is structural design.

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Custom Cabinetry - Portland, Cape Elizabeth, Scarborough, Kennebunkport, Yarmouth, Falmouth, Cumberland, Ogunquit, Maine

Salmon Falls Cabinetry

gregj

Maybe this should be a permanent post of some type.

Bone Saw

i agree, make it a sticky

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Double-A

Quote:

Warning:

Quote:

The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ContractorTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper saftey precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

Well, this notice appears in every thread. I realize its not the same, but I guess the ninnys that ask dumb questions think Nathan just put it there cause he had lunch with a lawyer once.

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"My clients’ wishes are the center of my attention." -- David Guido, a contractor in Woodstock, N.Y.
New York Times, July 20, 2006

neolitic

Sticky wouldn't help.
Most of those "Trade: houses, Posts:1"
questioners don't search anything anyway.
I agree with frammer on the one post guys,
but surely this is a place for the rest of us
to kick around ideas?
But yeah it's scary when someone
tells a new guy on some unknown location....
"Just use a 2X6 and you'll be fine"
with out any back story.
Maybe some of us should make it a point
not to let those kind of posts slide.
I think about it, but don't always act on the thought.

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(Sorry....it seems there really are dumb questions)

Kanding

For what it’s worth, I’m a structural engineer in the process of building an addition to my house, and I came to this forum to pick up some practical construction knowledge that I was unaware of. And I did (just one example; crowning studs, which I never heard of before, though that topic is apparently controversial).

I wanted to return the favor by offering some structural advice.

However, I quickly found that this intention was naive on my part. For all but the very simplest of cases, without seeing detailed plans, there are too many unknowns for me to feel comfortable doing this. The cautionary posts above nailed it.

Kind regards to all.

reveivl

My structural engineer tells me that he won't even give impromptu advice while sharing a beer with a friend, he will be liable (forever) for the advice he gives. Can you imagine having some lawsuit come at you ten years after you retired because of something you said in a bar once? It's happened.

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From where does knowledge come? If you need to know what is in a box, you could ask someone (not reliable), you could pray, (not useful), you can consult with the scripture (not helpful) or you could open the box (science)

BuiltByMAC

Way to go, framerman!!! Freakin' excellent thread!

I think I'm going to keep replying to this thread just to keep it "New!"

Guys don't realize that when we (contractor types and all) have questions like that, we actually pick up the phone and call ..... an engineer!
Then we give them some detailed plans...
Then they tell us what size beam to buy...
No internet shortcuts here.

Mac

BuiltByMAC

ba dump bump...

(please, please, please let those painters and drywall guys and flippers who wanna do a little work on their house or help a buddy out realize FRAMING is a SKILL and SIZING BEAMS is an ENGINEER'S JOB)

Mac

FramingFanatic

Amen and alleluhia to this thread. Excelent post framerman.

WNYcarpenter

You ought to post this thread on the DIY forum as well!

FramingFanatic

Aswell as in everyother trade forum

KentWhitten

Thank you guys, I appreciate your support of my thread. I never really thought of it being a sticky. I was just showing my frustration of saying over and over "talk to an engineer about this" and feeling like the people addressed weren't listening to the warnings. I sincerely feel that people who "just throw something in there that looks good enough" is just playing with fire.

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If you correct your mind, the rest of your life will fall into place ~Lao Tzu

Custom Cabinetry - Portland, Cape Elizabeth, Scarborough, Kennebunkport, Yarmouth, Falmouth, Cumberland, Ogunquit, Maine

Salmon Falls Cabinetry

MWHITLEY

My apologies to anyone i offended in my quest to help out a friend and in hind sight i my have offened all of you by thinking it was no big deal and after thinking about it you were all in the right and I was in the wrong and have since told him he should get a licenced GC and have a professional look at it and his quickness to have someone that didnt know what he was doing tear out that wall is now going to cost him now so the house wont fall down ! Again I am sorry for not thinking it through before i posted and offendeing anyone.

neolitic

No man, that's GREAT!
You asked, listened,
and then thought about it.
That is grand.
You'll always give a bit more thought
to a project before plunging in
over your head.
They call that learning.
Mission accomplished all the way around.

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neolitic

The offensive ones
are the guy's who ask
then pitch a hissy-fit
if they don't get the
answer they want to hear.
Good-on-ya man.

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MWHITLEY

No problem My Bad !

BuiltByMAC

bump bump be dump

Toldja I liked this thread!

Mac

Dawgnuts

Going to an architect/engineer every time you got a problem with no solution is a horrible idea that will stop your project dead in its tracks. 90% of the time you can find the correct answer in your local code book.

What we do when we have a problem is find it, create a solution, CAD it up then submit it to the engineer so he can just stamp it. Anyone who is in the industry for some time knows what needs to be done. Going to an engineer with nothing but a question just really slows down the process.

Sure sometimes they may take our drawing and tweak a couple things but the process is much faster. Waiting for an engineer to come up with a solution is usually a 3 week process.

Joe Carola

3 week process??? Not around here.

There's always a solution to a problem. If an Architect draws a set of plans and there's a problem that he caused, I can call him up and get an answer within a hour or the same day depending on communication.

If there's something in the field that has to be figured out, I will discuss and explain everything I can over the phone and also send pictures through my camera phone to him and have a decision made or he will have to come out to the field and we can discuss what needs to be done to get the job moving and no delays. There are field changes all the time. Sometimes it may take a day or two, but never three weeks, unless there was a major screw up.

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Joe Carola