Stepping Up From Remodeling

slapash14

hi everyone. I'm new here to the forum and been reading alot of you guys Q's and a's. Kind of new to framing as well. Well here is my problem:
Work as for as remodeling goes has slowed down so i have a good friend that has asked me to build his home. Haven't really did anything this big before. Only framed a few additions which turned out excellent. I'm gong over the plans and this house seems to be very difficult by looks of prints. Some ceilings are 9' and some are 10'. How much more difficult is this to frame than a regular 8' across addition ceiling. And is this a good idea to build this since i haven't done anything this big before?

any suggestions or ideas would help me sleep!

Second Look

I would pass on that if I valued the friendship.

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firemike

You might want to act as the project manager for him anyway. If you think that the prints look difficult, wait till get a pile of lumber and a hammer and saw in your hand. As remodeler, you probably know the basics of framing but as Second Look said, this is a bad place to find out you're in over your head.

You could take on the project and subcontract out the framing, and take care of the rest. This way you will still get some work, help out your friend, and get an education in framing too.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

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-Mike-

wink

real sound advice from these guys

rbsremodeling

Its Christmas get half up front. Buy some good gifts for the Family and Wish for the best.

HO HO HO!

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Pavola

There's not alot different about the actual framing of additions vs new, in fact additions require more attention to details when matching existing construction (the print doesn't account for hidden details). But, without complete confidence, I'd suggest you take a pass on the framing and find a role in which you can gain more experience. Good framing takes into account and plans for all the other trades following them, and is where inexperience can amount to lost time,poor quality and money. I wouldn't want to do that to a good friend unless they completely understood the learning curve involved in it and were willing and able ($$$) to ah......... pay for it.

slapash14

i am having two problems that scare me a bit. I understand from all of your suggestions but really need the work and money. And want to get into new construction someday and thought this was a good opp. the fist thing i am scared of is the different hieght on ceilings. Don't quiet understand how to do the ceiling joist since rooms are different hieght. Do i need to frame up one room and joist then the next? and the other thing is the rafters, not sure how long it will take to figure angles and build. Other than that i think i can handle the rest of it pretty quick. But as you all have said i am doing alot on this house like roofing sheetrock doors windows and trim. But if you all can help me with the two problems i guess i will see after suggestions and help. Hope you all can help and then when i start new contruction here in louisiana ya'll can come get of this work. ha ha

dayspring

If you are good @ reading prints, scheduling and overseeing projects take the job. Sub all the work you don't feel comfy doing. Always check out your subs before you hire them.

Friend or not, Don't work without a written contract. Dot your I's and cross your T's.

If you are indeed a good remodeler, not just a "Handy Mandy", you can easily handle a new constuction project with no problem.

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NorthstarNC

What does the roof entail? Anyway you can post a rendering of the house, off of the architects website? Do you have anyone who is more experienced with framing that will work by the hour for you? Sometimes two heads are better then one, and most experienced guys can figure most anything out with a little studying.

Teetorbilt

The roofing was my big concern as well. Ceilings can be anywhere below.

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Joe Carola

How are you supposed to learn more about framing if you don't learn more about framing? So the walls are different heights. Do you expect every house to be the same and that they will all be little square boxes. What happens if you get a house to frame with a bay roof that has different side measurements, or a bastard hip roof with different pitches on it with the same fascia lines and soffit overhangs with the hips sitting off the corner. Will you not do the job and run away from it? I'm not trying to be a smart a$$, but why not take the job in a heartbeat?

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Joe Carola

Teetorbilt

Joe, are you suggesting that a rookie take on a first job that could have some major complications? I want to see prints prior to any further posts.

Sometimes it's just better to admit that you are over your head rather than pay for the education. Education can be VERY expensive, I've been there and Dad was a CBC.

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dirt diggler

Can you read the plans??


if so ... I'd go for it


I know ... normally I would be one of the nay-sayers here.


But it's Christmas time and I'm making a concentrated effort to be more "positive"

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Thanks in advance!!!

Joe Carola

Yes I am. If he can't handle it and it's a one time thing, sub it out or higher an experienced framer to work side by side with him. He said he's slow and needs the work. He's the one that's deciding to become the framer, so he has to take on a job that has something new. Why would he be in over his head? Since when is every job the same and nothing new comes around. So it's the first time he has to frame something with different height walls. So you're supposed to run away from the job?

If he thinks that he can't handle this, then he can higher a more experienced framer to work side by side or he can just sub the framing out. If he's going to start taking on all framing jobs then he's now a framer and has to learn how to frame anything put in front of him, period!

If you're a rookie trimmer and just trimmed additions that only had square windows and doors and then you get a set of plans that call for round windows and door, what do you do walk away because the job just became a little more difficult?

There's a first time for everything in the beginning. I was there 24 years ago. I took on any house that was put in front of me and figured out anything that came up that was more difficult. It goes with the trade you pick It goes the same for any other trade. There are still many types of roofs that I haven't framed yet and would love to. If they come up, I will be a beginner and learn how to frame that roof.

If your a mason just starting out and only do square and rectangle foundations, what does the mason do when he gets a set of plans that have foundations for round walls or octagon and bay walls or trapezoid walls, walk away, or learn how to do your trade?

Everyone here just starting out in a trade is a rookie, but that's how you learn by taking on the jobs that come your way whether there little boxes or they're cut up with different wall height and roof pitches. If you don't want anything difficult, just try and pick your own jobs that are simple, if you can. If this is a one time thing for him and he feels it's to difficult then he should just sub it out.

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Joe Carola

slapash14

this is a first for me as for as new construction goes. Have alittle framing exp. but not a whole lot. From the looks of things down here i would like to get into more framing and be like u all. I can't seem to out how to the prints on here. And i guess in time i will learn framing terms. like 2 rows of solid bridging. doesn't ring bell for me. i do have two exp framers that said they would help and teach me somethings. Haven't been able to show them the prints yet but i have just been looking over them and seeing little phrases that are bothering me because i can't seem to find out what they are saying.

thanks to all that have replied.

Joe Carola

Ask any question you want here and hopefully we can help. A lot of people have different terms for the same thing but it will get figured out. It's good that you have a couple experienced framers because that will be the best way for you to learn. Ask them a million questions, don't just watch them frame it, ask them how they figured it out, whether it be by math, framing square, drawing on the deck. You will be schooled right there on the spot.

The two rows of solid bridging/blocking means that if your using 2x10's @ 16" centers for floor joists and they span 15' for example, you have to divide 15' x 3 and make marks at 5' and 10' and snap lines across the top of the joists and cut 2x10's 14-3/8" and nail them into your floor joists. Sometime we use cross bridging cut out of 5/4x3 spruce instead of solid blocking.

I hope it works out for you. If you can take a picture of your plans with a digital camera, download it to your computer and try to post them here.

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Joe Carola

Pavola

slapash14, if you have experienced framers to help, let 'er rip. Study the cross sections to figure out the wall height issue. Bring the prints home every night and study, post/ask questions when needed. I have no problem with guys walking into new and different projects, but your OP had a little bit of the 'deer in the headlights' ring to it, but now seems you've jumped to the side of running with it. I just hate seeing HO's left with disappointment and problems when to them building a new house is one of the most exciting things they can do. Good luck.

Txbassboy

I think you need to be extremely careful here. I understand your desire to grow your company and become more successful. However I see some disasters WAITING to happen. There are a few scenarios I can see for you NOT taking the job:

1. The business side of the numbers will not add up. What I mean is this. If it costs x amount of dollars to frame this house being a framing contractor it will take x amount of time for a crew who does it all the time to be profitable. Their skills allow them to do a task in a profitable way. If it takes a crew a half a day to do a certain portion and it takes you 3 days to do it there is no way you could be profitable. You have x amount of dollars that you have to make a day inorder just to survive. We all do. I'm very afraid that you will get behind on the $ side and try to make it up (time) somewhere else.
2. Will your friend be willing to wait the extra amount of time it takes you to do the work? Maybe for a bit but trust me his wife won't last long. She starts pressuring him and I promise he's going to start putting the pressure on you.
3. Are you confident in your abilities to produce a quality product without help?

In my humble opinion if you answer negatively to any of these points above (If I were in your shoes) I would definetly not undertake this portion of the job my self.

If you are to take on the framing youself I would definitely recomend what was already mentioned. Absolutely hire someone who is competent in their trade to get the job done. Work out some type of agreement with whoever you hire where you can learn. Maybe sub the framing out with the condition that they HAVE to hire you as a helper.

I see lost profit, time, materials and worse a friendship if you take this project on yourself. I am definitely not wishing you any ill effects if you take on the job and I actually wish you the best. I just have a tendency to look at what potentially could go wrong first.

Best of luck to you!

neolitic

I'm thinking back to the Mom that posted with the nightmare-friend-as-GC scenario on the huge chopped up McMansion deal a while ago.
I'd want to see what this house looks like before I start to be a cheer leader.
A "creative" architect, a set of fuzzy prints, and no experience....
Could be something that no one will be happy with.

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slapash14

appreciate all your opinions on this. And yes a i was a deer in headlights when i first posted this but now i have had a few weeks to study these prints and starting to feel better about it. Still alittle crazy on these different heights of ceilings. I know someone said something about houses being little boxes, i am not saying that all i was saying then was i am used to building additions where all the walls are the same height. But i am still not sure how these different heights in the house work with the ceiling joist and wall height.