Need Some Advice Framing To A Beam

Vabuilder

Hey guys, I've done many additions but this will be my first two story requiring the use of a steel beam to carry floor span. the architect will work out beam sizing so I'm not worried about that. my concern is that the beam has to be concealed in a smooth ceiling. what's the best way to frame the floor joists to it. I'm thinking the beam will be and "I" beam so I could fit the joists into the sides of it and use the 3/4 ply and glue to tie them together on either side.

thanks,

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JonM

I would try to convince him to use a glue-lam...or two with a piece of sheet steel between them.

kevjob

uh, engineers should figure beam the architect will make it look pretty.

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Vabuilder

Hey Kevin, the Achitects have an in-office engineer so that is they're baby. I'm just trying to figure the best way to bring it all together. I thought about the glue lam instead of the steel but I don't have the height to make it work. I'm trying to match existing 1'st floor ceiling heights and second floor floor levels. the house was framed using 2x8 joists so I'm stuck with that for height. we're spanning 22' with the beam and having only 7.5" to deal with sticks us with a steel member. (I think)

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neolitic

I think they're gonna have to pull
a rabbit out of their hat (or out of
somewhere) to make that work.
Make them give you the detail to make
the connections.
I hope you have a lot of help to
lift and wrestle that mother lover,
it will be a beast.
This sounds like a deal where the HO
should have been told that you can't
have everything that you want!
Good luck, to you.

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Vabuilder

It may yet come to that, we're investigating the options but for now they would like to see if can be done. they have the designers working hard on it so i'm sure something can be worked out. as for the weight of the beam, I told my helper not to have sex for a few days prior to the lift---

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neolitic

If they can design something that
defies the laws of physics for this.
You will need to cut your joist to leave
a pocket exactly the width of the beam
so that you can make connections.
I'd be looking into some kind of lifts,
cause you will need to go straight up
and in with little to no clearance.
Watch out for yourself cause
those guys can design something
that is impossible for you to install!
Press them for details, practical,
workable details, every chance you get.
Think about what it will be like in real life
every time you look at one of their
pretty little pictures.

Check these out when you get a spec...
http://www.efunda.com/math/areas/RolledSteelBeamsS.cfm
http://www.freedownloadscenter.com/B...alculator.html
I don't think this is a two man job.
BTW--tell your helper, he should have all
the sex he can!
After this he may not be able to any more.

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thom

I did one similar to that years ago.

We set a ledger on the I beam flange on each side with hangars attached to the ledger. Each of the joists had to be trimmed a little (or you could pad them with lath) to allow for the depth of the flange. Install steel strapping on the top of the joists spanning the beam to hold things together.

Your architect or engineer will need to include the detail in the plans.

Vabuilder

Thanks and believe me, I don't take any of this lightly. I have alot of experiance dealing with architects and engineers and their "pretty" designs. I know they don't always make them real world friendly. also, I was kidding about the help aspect of it, I have plenty of help available when I need it. I'm also very adept at rigging and figuring out how to handle heavy and awkward materials. I'm going to see if my supplier can design a short (7.5") truss system for the floor that will span the required 20'. there will be a master bedroom above it so it will need to be stong. even if I have to put them on 12" centers it might be easier than messing with the beam.

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neolitic

Keep us posted!
Very interested in what the pencil
and paper boys come up with,
and what you come up with.
Pix are always good....
we gotta share the pain.

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A W Smith

Wow that sounds familiar

http://www.contractortalk.com/showpo...22&postcount=5

http://www.contractortalk.com/showpo...86&postcount=7

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FramingFanatic

There are several ways to hide the beam in the floor Va. First make sure that the engineers design the beam so that the height is equal to that of the joists being used. Now if using dimensional lumber as your joists you can notch them so that they sit inside the I-Beam on the bottom flange. Or if using engineered joists then you will have to get the engineers to design the beam 1 1/2" shorter than the joists to allow for a nailing plate ontop of the beam. Then you can hanger your joists.

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FRAMERBEN

When using a steel beam as a flush beam, we will usually fill the inside of the web untill each side is past the top and bottom flange. have the beam maker drill holes in the beam about every 18" or so. then we through bolt to the other side holding it all togeather. This allows a solid joist hanger connection. as well as a simple square cut on the end of the joist.

neolitic

How do you push the top flange past the joist tails?

Now he's down to a 5¾" beam to span 22' carrying 20' span of 2nd floor?

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FramingFanatic

Well first off im sure you have an arsenal of saws in your collection so you can sinply shave the 1/4" or however thick the flange is off to allow the tail of the joist to sit in he beam.

As to the second quote... i missed his post saying he was stuck with 2x8 framing members.

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JonM

I'll throw one more option in...you could weld Simpson brackets to the beam...I would go one step further and also put a 24" strap from joist to joist.

neolitic

Not to say it's impossible, but I want to see
the video (with sound) of slipping ½ ton
of steel into a tight pocket with 34 joist
tails sliding into their welded hangers at
the same time.
That would be really interesting to watch.
Glad not to be one of the guys under the
beam while all this goes on.
Like I said, probably not impossible, but
it seems like there could be a hitch
along the way.

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neolitic

Wonder how they'd feel about a nice
coffered ceiling?

http://www.contractortalk.com/showth...ffered+ceiling

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Joe Carola

There's no way that you can get a 7.5" I-beam that will span 20' holding a second floor. I did one 3 years ago that was 20' and we had 2x10 joists and this had to be flush. The Engineer designed a 8" x 22" tube steel for that.

Even if you can get a I-beam, why are you the one who decides what way you have to nail the joists in. The easiest way for your situation is to just pack out the steel and hang the joists. Any other way makes no sense at all.

Put temp walls up and cut the joists back and lift the steel in place with glue on top and nail and hang your joists.

You can order any length you want and they come all packed out and bolted from "Better Header".

http://betterheader.com/ibeam.asp

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cleveman

I think Framerben has the best solution for you.

I currently have an 8" high x 5 1/2" wide beam carrying 18' of floor. It is not within the floor and I went ahead and attached an 8" wide (high) 1/4" piece of metal alongside it.

Your idea of a gluelam with steel in the middle ought to work as well, although it would have to be custom made for your 2x8's (7 1/4", right?).

So Framerben's built-out I-beam or your gluelam with iron in the middle both sound fine. I'll bet the built out I-beam will be easier because there is no question about the "on-site" attachments of the gluelams to the iron filler.

good post