Modifying A Load Bearing Wall.

JumboJack · 01-06-2009, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.Foster

Our inspectors out here take insulation inspections to another level, let alone the framing!! They think they are god's, questioning the engineers drawings too!

Been there,got pulled through that knott hole.

barnbuilder1 · 01-07-2009, 12:04 AM

You need a qualified person to come look at your project. You preface for a quick question but your description of work is baffling. You have great potential for wall collapse. YOU seem clueless and want others to pull you through some hoops. You need to sharpen your english skills and get some on the job training with a serious minded contractor. I will quote you this,"To see is to know, to guess is to guess".

critter · 01-07-2009, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wall2wall

Ok yes the joist run perpendicular to the load bearing wall, macey if you read the first part right its says 11ft wall width from and 12ft ceilings i thought that was described exactly how it was, but let me refraise so im on the same page as everyone else the wall is 11ft from left the right and up and down its 12ft high. With that said the ceiling at the top of the 12ft high wall goes out about 7ft then curves down to a 8ft sheetrock wall on the other side of that room so it looks like a arch going up to a flat ceiling i will try and post some pics since they would be much better only 5 more post til i can do that. So that is the living room... the 11 by 12high wall is where the opening will be on the other side of the opening its a standard 8ft ceiling and that is the kitchen area that ties into the 11x12ft wall im making the opening in. The biggest question i have lets forget everything else i know the headers are fine, but the load being distributed down. I was always under the impression that when you have a stick framing the load is dispersed among all the studs and when you take those studs out it changes distribution to the jack studs the headers are sitting on thus needing more support in the area under that pt. in my case the basement because now instead of the weight being evenly distributed it is concentrated on that pt on the joist below. Let me know if that is any better. Again it will be much easier with pics and i will get them up as soon as i can.

----------------------------------------------
You are correct that the loading point is changed after header installation. Without seeing the double joists you mentioned, I would guess it would be wise to install pier footings and lally columns at the trimmer locations - or within a few inches of their bearing points, anyway. As a wise one of our members pointed out, -when in doubt, a little overkill is not unwise! It has been my experience that if your gut is not comfortable with trusting the existing support, you are probably right to add that safety margin. The extra work/expense/time is usually not wasted.

Burby · 01-07-2009, 06:57 AM

The entire country is suppose to follow the IRC, there are several areas that do not, (YET). But one thing you can be sure of, if, there is a building boom in your area, there will be law suits, because of those not experienced building things they should not.
All it will take is for one law suit, the lawyer bragging to his buddies the money he just took in for others to join in. Followed by lawyers from areas already gone thru this, now they have the experience to unearth every possible dollar from any with insurance who has built in the last decade. You can bet your bottom dollar, you will be held accountable for failure to comply with the IRC.
These Inspectors that told you to not worry about it or that is fine, watch how many will admit to saying that when you need them to.
For those of us who build in areas that have been thru this, we as well as the building department, follow the code to the letter. It may suk, but at the same time, once everyone plays by the same rules, it is much better.

I still recall when I first began building here, ran into the very same.
I called for a footing inspection. After stopping by each day for 3 days to find no permit signing to ok the pour, I called the building dept. The inspector said, "go ahead and pour, the inspector for your area will be by to sign the permit when he has time".

I said thanks, but I will wait for him to inspect first.
He did come by the next morning and asked I was new to building in this town, I replied yeah I was.
He said, just go ahead and pour, next time you call in for an inspection just keep the building moving fwd, I will eventually get out here to sign off. We don;t try to hold you & H/Os up, keep on building.

--=lordy lordy, I am so glad I waited each time. Within 5 years of this, the law suits began & once lawyers saw how profitable it was, every lawyer became experienced in residential construction. They were dropping dovorces to begin res. litigation & running adds nationwide for lawers paralegals, ect, to move here & work for them, the firms would pay all expenses. The sue the builders, the builders drag in the trades and all pay. Framers have the same liability as the Builder, 10 years. It does not matter who said it is ok to do what ever. The one built it is as responsible as the one hired to build.

Now with the experience so many lawyers & firms have, you can bet they are looking for more areas to move to now or young lawyers or firms looking to make theirs as well.

So areas not following the IRC, enjoy while you can, just hope you beat the clock.
If you do not have the IRC book, it would be a good idea to purchase one, imo.
When ever a lawyer is brought into a build, he/she hires an Engineer, the Engineer does a complete evaluation of the build & if one or 2 things are discovered, you can bet he/she will find many more problems.

And yes they do drag the Building dept into the suits now, the inspectors will testify they cannot be responsible to inspect every nail, beam, ect ect & they are expemt from having to do so. The one with the Lisc is the professional and is suppose to know their business & requirements.

I'm sure there are some who visit this forum that either has been or knows someone who has been drug into one of these suits.

So enjoy while able, just know it will not last for long.
It's not about being afraid to make a call, it is about the value business owners have for their lisc.

WarnerConstInc. · 01-07-2009, 09:30 AM

What the hell is that supposed to mean burby?

Burby · 01-07-2009, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarnerConstInc.

What the hell is that supposed to mean burby?

2000 IRC, International Residential Code, for one & two family dwellings, all Contractors must now follow, no exceptions, regardless of city & or state one lives & operates business relating to building or remodeling of homes.

Some cities or towns may not push the codes yet, but soon will, one way or another. Some places will just take some law suits before they enforce the building codes.
Most cities & or towns have & do follow the new codes.
Including when modifying a structure a beam must be approved by an Arch or Engineer for permitting. (if a permit is pulled that is)

It's not because Builders or framers here do not know the proper size to use & probably have been the one who has determined the beam size in the past, but under the IRC now cannot.

So many of the changes seem ignorant because we have always been the ones who determined what was or was not safe, now we are told what is.

It took a FEMA inspection here in SC to say, Unless all new buildings & or remodels follow the new IRC, FEMA will not approve any money in the event of another natural disaster. (Follow up inspection after Hurricane Hugo)
From this all building inspectors followed the codes to the letter. In addition to FEMA's threat, the syn stucco & LP class action cases offered exp to lawyers & Engineers & lead to the discovories of building practices that were not to code, in turn going after the builders & trades responsible.
Once the lawyers were able to then drag building inspectors into the law suits, Building departments began to follow the codes to the letter as well.

So in reference to those that say people here depend to much on Archs & Engineers, instead of common sense building practices, obiviously do not follow the IRC.

Tom M · 01-07-2009, 10:30 AM

Some good points from different views. Were in a tough situation theses days. Everything is complicated and everyone has thier hands in the pot. You have no work or things are bad then something comes up. You can charge a 1000 bucks for a small header opening to work a day or 2 or sit home because the homeowner turned down the idea. That little job just became 5 days with inspections and another 500-600 bucks for a stamped drawing.
I was taught how to do simply load calculation as an inspector but not as a contractor. Some of the posters on the forum are well educated from different areas of the country because they are required to know more.

I hate to say it but we probably need another requirement for contractors. Say a level 1 or 2 license that proves knowledge of small loads and designs. Then deck or crap like this would become less of an issue. How about a renovation license(just claddings) or an Alteration license(simple to moderate structural)perhaps just repairs? I know everyones cringing but at least our knowledge is better rewarded.

Tom M · 01-07-2009, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burby

2000 IRC, International Residential Code, for one & two family dwellings, all Contractors must now follow,

It's not because Builders or framers here do not know the proper size to use & probably have been the one who has determined the beam size in the past, but under the IRC now cannot.

So in reference to those that say people here depend to much on Archs & Engineers, instead of common sense building practices, obiviously do not follow the IRC.

I cant tell you how many General Contractors I know dont own an IRC book or know how to do a load calculation. Im still young and I try to get some advice from older guys I know in business. Believe me it usually turns into an argument that its not they're job to know anymore than what the architect calls out and these inspectors are only there breaking balls cause they have to justify that lazy job or raise money for the town. Thats how it is in the real world and not to change the subject but many framers dont know how to read a framing square and most business owners dont put countless hours figuring material mark-up or capacity based hourly crap either yet they have supported hundreds of openings larger than ***xx and they know what works and how much it should cost.

wallmaxx · 01-07-2009, 08:46 PM

I heard the 2009 is going to look a lot more streamlined and leaning towards the commercial side of things...also...it is supposed to be more in line with the UBC. I was told it will help with the upcoming outsourcing, of the design side of things, if peeps in India have one reference standard to design a home for any region of the our Country.

Comments?

Deadhead Derek · 01-08-2009, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JumboJack

.......But if the wall is suporting a heavy load (like a second floor) it could be another story all togeather.

god, I love puns......

Deadhead Derek · 01-08-2009, 02:00 AM

As to Burby's statement that all of us are subject to the IRC, that isn't completely true. The state of Oregon has adopted the 2005 IRC, but is also the only state in the union that has it's own amendments to the code . Our books have the standard code, though some redacted, with our "yellow pages" added with the specifics carried forward from the Oregon version of the UBC. As for the requirement of an arch or eng. the administrative section reads that at the discretion of the building official, in plans that equal 4000 SF or less, that those requirement may be waived; the idea is that there are those of use who can still calc a span data chart, and size a framing element accordingly. the code also has a variety of provisions for subscribing to the prescriptive path that also negates requirement for a stamped set from an Eng. I am not saying that the majority of hammerswingers should do this all themselves, and yes, in this age, codes do protect us from the lowest common denominators in the trades. There is a place and time for arch's and eng's, but not always. I do agree, if you are a Contractor, you should own the code books. period. they are as important as your hatchet.....

MALCO.New.York · 01-08-2009, 02:12 AM

Does that not, "Yellow Pages and Redaction", negate the term UBC??? And or IRC??? Hmmmmmmmmm!!! Tis a Screwy, Politicized Country we live in! But 'Taint nothin' like it!

Deadhead Derek · 01-08-2009, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MALCO.New.York

Does that not, "Yellow Pages and Redaction", negate the term UBC??? And or IRC??? Hmmmmmmmmm!!! Tis a Screwy, Politicized Country we live in! But 'Taint nothin' like it!

you make a good point , for a newyawwker...how unifified or international can something be, if Oregon goes and changes it.....hmm.I could say that all jurisdictions have the ability to make and code adopted more restrictive than the more commonplace "unified" or "international" version, but that might be confusing for you east coasters.......hee hee hee.....

Deadhead Derek · 01-08-2009, 02:21 AM

what the hell are yo doing up this late anyhow? did you spill your warm milk?

MALCO.New.York · 01-08-2009, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadhead Derek

.............restrictive than the more commonplace "unified" or "international" version, but that might be confusing for you east coasters.......hee hee hee.....

Nah...Nothing too confusing 'bout it. Just messes up the "Payola"!

Deadhead Derek · 01-08-2009, 02:27 AM

ah, the old case of scotch in the trunk of the Buick inspections... I forgot about them..

MALCO.New.York · 01-08-2009, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadhead Derek

ah, the old case of scotch in the trunk of the Buick inspections... I forgot about them..

'Tis "The Way of the World", DD!

neolitic · 01-08-2009, 08:44 AM

From the land where IRC is not
the rule, I thought I would remind
everybody about this,
http://public.resource.org/
Free is good!

Deadhead Derek · 01-08-2009, 09:36 AM

bookmarked. thanks for that link, Neo, it looks cooler than Alaskan snot.

wow, I don't know where that came from...

WarnerConstInc. · 01-08-2009, 10:32 AM

Some of you guys turned into Nazi's about this huh?

01-07-2009, 12:04 AM	#62
barnbuilder1 View Profile barnbuilder1 Member Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (42) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Member Trade: building wooden portable buildings Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 42	Re: Modifying A Load Bearing Wall. You need a qualified person to come look at your project. You preface for a quick question but your description of work is baffling. You have great potential for wall collapse. YOU seem clueless and want others to pull you through some hoops. You need to sharpen your english skills and get some on the job training with a serious minded contractor. I will quote you this,"To see is to know, to guess is to guess".

01-07-2009, 06:57 AM	#64
Burby View Profile Burby Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (359) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Remodel / repairs / Certified Mold inspector, Remediator Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 359	Re: Modifying A Load Bearing Wall. The entire country is suppose to follow the IRC, there are several areas that do not, (YET). But one thing you can be sure of, if, there is a building boom in your area, there will be law suits, because of those not experienced building things they should not. All it will take is for one law suit, the lawyer bragging to his buddies the money he just took in for others to join in. Followed by lawyers from areas already gone thru this, now they have the experience to unearth every possible dollar from any with insurance who has built in the last decade. You can bet your bottom dollar, you will be held accountable for failure to comply with the IRC. These Inspectors that told you to not worry about it or that is fine, watch how many will admit to saying that when you need them to. For those of us who build in areas that have been thru this, we as well as the building department, follow the code to the letter. It may suk, but at the same time, once everyone plays by the same rules, it is much better. I still recall when I first began building here, ran into the very same. I called for a footing inspection. After stopping by each day for 3 days to find no permit signing to ok the pour, I called the building dept. The inspector said, "go ahead and pour, the inspector for your area will be by to sign the permit when he has time". I said thanks, but I will wait for him to inspect first. He did come by the next morning and asked I was new to building in this town, I replied yeah I was. He said, just go ahead and pour, next time you call in for an inspection just keep the building moving fwd, I will eventually get out here to sign off. We don;t try to hold you & H/Os up, keep on building. --=lordy lordy, I am so glad I waited each time. Within 5 years of this, the law suits began & once lawyers saw how profitable it was, every lawyer became experienced in residential construction. They were dropping dovorces to begin res. litigation & running adds nationwide for lawers paralegals, ect, to move here & work for them, the firms would pay all expenses. The sue the builders, the builders drag in the trades and all pay. Framers have the same liability as the Builder, 10 years. It does not matter who said it is ok to do what ever. The one built it is as responsible as the one hired to build. Now with the experience so many lawyers & firms have, you can bet they are looking for more areas to move to now or young lawyers or firms looking to make theirs as well. So areas not following the IRC, enjoy while you can, just hope you beat the clock. If you do not have the IRC book, it would be a good idea to purchase one, imo. When ever a lawyer is brought into a build, he/she hires an Engineer, the Engineer does a complete evaluation of the build & if one or 2 things are discovered, you can bet he/she will find many more problems. And yes they do drag the Building dept into the suits now, the inspectors will testify they cannot be responsible to inspect every nail, beam, ect ect & they are expemt from having to do so. The one with the Lisc is the professional and is suppose to know their business & requirements. I'm sure there are some who visit this forum that either has been or knows someone who has been drug into one of these suits. So enjoy while able, just know it will not last for long. It's not about being afraid to make a call, it is about the value business owners have for their lisc. __________________ Proud to help make a house your Home Never judge another by one's own intelligence

01-07-2009, 09:30 AM	#65
WarnerConstInc. View Profile WarnerConstInc. I like Green things Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (11,688) Photos (0) Reviews (9) Projects (1) Toolbox (10) View All Activity I like Green things Trade: Custom Carpentry Services Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: In a van, down by the river. Auburn, IN Posts: 11,688	Re: Modifying A Load Bearing Wall. What the hell is that supposed to mean burby?

01-07-2009, 10:30 AM	#67
Tom M View Profile Tom M Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,886) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: GC/ Interior & Exterior Remodeling Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Bergen County, NJ Posts: 1,886	Re: Modifying A Load Bearing Wall. Some good points from different views. Were in a tough situation theses days. Everything is complicated and everyone has thier hands in the pot. You have no work or things are bad then something comes up. You can charge a 1000 bucks for a small header opening to work a day or 2 or sit home because the homeowner turned down the idea. That little job just became 5 days with inspections and another 500-600 bucks for a stamped drawing. I was taught how to do simply load calculation as an inspector but not as a contractor. Some of the posters on the forum are well educated from different areas of the country because they are required to know more. I hate to say it but we probably need another requirement for contractors. Say a level 1 or 2 license that proves knowledge of small loads and designs. Then deck or crap like this would become less of an issue. How about a renovation license(just claddings) or an Alteration license(simple to moderate structural)perhaps just repairs? I know everyones cringing but at least our knowledge is better rewarded.

01-07-2009, 08:46 PM	#69
wallmaxx View Profile wallmaxx I used to think so....... Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,203) Photos (6) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity I used to think so....... Trade: My words are OPINIONS and hold no REAL value. 2012 Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: WA State Posts: 2,203	Re: Modifying A Load Bearing Wall. I heard the 2009 is going to look a lot more streamlined and leaning towards the commercial side of things...also...it is supposed to be more in line with the UBC. I was told it will help with the upcoming outsourcing, of the design side of things, if peeps in India have one reference standard to design a home for any region of the our Country. Comments?

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01-08-2009, 02:00 AM	#71
Deadhead Derek View Profile Deadhead Derek Code Nerd Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (493) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Code Nerd Trade: Historic Preservationist / Furniture Maker Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Central Oregon Posts: 493	Re: Modifying A Load Bearing Wall. As to Burby's statement that all of us are subject to the IRC, that isn't completely true. The state of Oregon has adopted the 2005 IRC, but is also the only state in the union that has it's own amendments to the code . Our books have the standard code, though some redacted, with our "yellow pages" added with the specifics carried forward from the Oregon version of the UBC. As for the requirement of an arch or eng. the administrative section reads that at the discretion of the building official, in plans that equal 4000 SF or less, that those requirement may be waived; the idea is that there are those of use who can still calc a span data chart, and size a framing element accordingly. the code also has a variety of provisions for subscribing to the prescriptive path that also negates requirement for a stamped set from an Eng. I am not saying that the majority of hammerswingers should do this all themselves, and yes, in this age, codes do protect us from the lowest common denominators in the trades. There is a place and time for arch's and eng's, but not always. I do agree, if you are a Contractor, you should own the code books. period. they are as important as your hatchet..... __________________ www.darkstarltd.net Hand-crafted Traditional Masonic Furniture and Coffins

01-08-2009, 02:12 AM	#72
MALCO.New.York View Profile MALCO.New.York Handle It! Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (9,384) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Handle It! Trade: Everything The Union Guys Do Not Want To Do Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Brooklyn, NY ~ Haverford, PA Posts: 9,384	Re: Modifying A Load Bearing Wall. Does that not, "Yellow Pages and Redaction", negate the term UBC??? And or IRC??? Hmmmmmmmmm!!! Tis a Screwy, Politicized Country we live in! But 'Taint nothin' like it! __________________ Something to One may be Nothing to another! Ultimate Wisdom--------- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW-cnizLDEE

01-08-2009, 02:21 AM	#74
Deadhead Derek View Profile Deadhead Derek Code Nerd Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (493) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Code Nerd Trade: Historic Preservationist / Furniture Maker Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Central Oregon Posts: 493	Re: Modifying A Load Bearing Wall. what the hell are yo doing up this late anyhow? did you spill your warm milk? __________________ www.darkstarltd.net Hand-crafted Traditional Masonic Furniture and Coffins

01-08-2009, 02:27 AM	#76
Deadhead Derek View Profile Deadhead Derek Code Nerd Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (493) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Code Nerd Trade: Historic Preservationist / Furniture Maker Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Central Oregon Posts: 493	Re: Modifying A Load Bearing Wall. ah, the old case of scotch in the trunk of the Buick inspections... I forgot about them.. __________________ www.darkstarltd.net Hand-crafted Traditional Masonic Furniture and Coffins

01-08-2009, 08:44 AM	#78
neolitic View Profile neolitic Curmudgeon Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (11,707) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Curmudgeon Trade: carpentry/remodeling/"Yes M'am we do" Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Beech Grove, Indiana, Birthplace of the "King of Cool" Posts: 11,707	Re: Modifying A Load Bearing Wall. From the land where IRC is not the rule, I thought I would remind everybody about this, http://public.resource.org/ Free is good! __________________ Put your location in your profile! (Sorry....it seems there really are dumb questions)

01-08-2009, 09:36 AM	#79
Deadhead Derek View Profile Deadhead Derek Code Nerd Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (493) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Code Nerd Trade: Historic Preservationist / Furniture Maker Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Central Oregon Posts: 493	Re: Modifying A Load Bearing Wall. bookmarked. thanks for that link, Neo, it looks cooler than Alaskan snot. wow, I don't know where that came from... __________________ www.darkstarltd.net Hand-crafted Traditional Masonic Furniture and Coffins

01-08-2009, 10:32 AM	#80
WarnerConstInc. View Profile WarnerConstInc. I like Green things Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (11,688) Photos (0) Reviews (9) Projects (1) Toolbox (10) View All Activity I like Green things Trade: Custom Carpentry Services Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: In a van, down by the river. Auburn, IN Posts: 11,688	Re: Modifying A Load Bearing Wall. Some of you guys turned into Nazi's about this huh?

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