[borat_borat1950]

I am a framer. This is a framing forum, where do people like carpenters, remodlers, roffers,(yes I spelled it right), BUILDERS (THE WORST), and anybody else who is not a framer, get off on giving us framing advise!!! I have read alot of threads and the most common advise is to seek an arch. or eng. advise. The world we work in is to have these decisions made, mostly by us, before we get there, our call, our ass! Framing is engineering to the upmost, we build the structure and provide a square and stable structure for the HOMEOWNER. We do not screw the price down so that we can make more money!! As a bonified broke framer I know this. I didn't mean to hurt feelings, but if your not on my end of the rope then you know not where the framer goes after the time clock rings and you all go home???????????

[Burby]

Originally Posted by borat_borat1950

I am a framer. This is a framing forum, where do people like carpenters, remodlers, roffers,(yes I spelled it right), BUILDERS (THE WORST), and anybody else who is not a framer, get off on giving us framing advise!!! I have read alot of threads and the most common advise is to seek an arch. or eng. advise. The world we work in is to have these decisions made, mostly by us, before we get there, our call, our ass! Framing is engineering to the upmost, we build the structure and provide a square and stable structure for the HOMEOWNER. We do not screw the price down so that we can make more money!! As a bonified broke framer I know this. I didn't mean to hurt feelings, but if your not on my end of the rope then you know not where the framer goes after the time clock rings and you all go home???????????

hahahaha, a framing forum? Below is what I have at the top of my page, Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Did they go and mess up the title?? dang it.
This has t be an April fools post you created and just could not wait for April to post it, is it not? I guessed it did I not??
We all go home after the clock rings, (rings? hmmm) yup, some of us do, some go to the bars to listen to some framers drink, puff out their chest, talk about their framing hatchet is bigger than the next one's, ect ect, it is good entertainment.
But do not flatter yourself, you could not ever hurt my feelings, hahaha. I have repaired enough screw ups of framers, saved the azz of enough framers, Helped enough framers once they put down their back hairs & realized the little they own could be taken away if they didn't, and even have some good friends who still are framers.
But rest assure there is very good reason why all say seek the advise of archs and or Engineers, by law you have no say other than in defense to what you may have done as well as to follow the plans as drawn, know the codes that pertain to your trade & hopefully forsee a problem if one arises in a plan drawing. I have not operated in all states, but the ones I have, (and would be willing to bet most are the same, a framer does not have a legal leg to stand on in making a call when it pertains to structure or plan changes because it is out of your pay scale.
You can offer an opinion, but to make that call to change a plan, nope, sorry to burst your bubble, but no again.
That is the job of the G/C, Engineer, or Arch, they have the qualifications to make this call. What would be the need to have any of these professionals if a framer could make these calls??

Post like your gives every framer out there a bad name. Their are some framers who operate their business like a business, a professional business and they recieve the respect they have earnt.
Each trade is as important as the next, providing each knows their limits & operates within the scope of their trade. Beleive you are better than all & you will be like any others who act as this, just another poor business owner living in a dream world, unable to make payroll & pay every day bills.
Your statement, framing is engineering to the upmost. To some degree you do have a point there now, because some of the problems I have seen or repaired, could only have been caused by a framer with that type of thinking.

Framers do have the same structural liability as a builder or G/C, as should.
Then again, always being a framer, your knowledge is limited is it not?
A builder or G/C has the responsibility of the project as a whole, not just in part as you.
Always being just a framer, this does not offer you experience in what does or what does not work, because you do not deal with problems you may cause, unless it fails within the first 10 years or so. You can do your center nailing all you want, some materials even forget to put in a nail and it will stand while all materials are new, but you have no idea as to what will happen years down the road that get repaired without bringing you back into the picture.
To many times the builder or g/c has to pick up the liability of the framer because the framer typically don't have enough for anyone to go after.

Finally, there are some great, sincere, framers out there I would be happy to work with or hire, then there is the few like yourself that words just cannot describe.
One of the sad things is you probably own a wife & kids as well.

Merry Christmas & Happy New Years
Hopefully you won;t be waking up with a bad hang over today

[borat_borat1950]

Originally Posted by Burby

hahahaha, a framing forum? Below is what I have at the top of my page, Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Did they go and mess up the title?? dang it.
This has t be an April fools post you created and just could not wait for April to post it, is it not? I guessed it did I not??
We all go home after the clock rings, (rings? hmmm) yup, some of us do, some go to the bars to listen to some framers drink, puff out their chest, talk about their framing hatchet is bigger than the next one's, ect ect, it is good entertainment.
But do not flatter yourself, you could not ever hurt my feelings, hahaha. I have repaired enough screw ups of framers, saved the azz of enough framers, Helped enough framers once they put down their back hairs & realized the little they own could be taken away if they didn't, and even have some good friends who still are framers.
But rest assure there is very good reason why all say seek the advise of archs and or Engineers, by law you have no say other than in defense to what you may have done as well as to follow the plans as drawn, know the codes that pertain to your trade & hopefully forsee a problem if one arises in a plan drawing. I have not operated in all states, but the ones I have, (and would be willing to bet most are the same, a framer does not have a legal leg to stand on in making a call when it pertains to structure or plan changes because it is out of your pay scale.
You can offer an opinion, but to make that call to change a plan, nope, sorry to burst your bubble, but no again.
That is the job of the G/C, Engineer, or Arch, they have the qualifications to make this call. What would be the need to have any of these professionals if a framer could make these calls??

Post like your gives every framer out there a bad name. Their are some framers who operate their business like a business, a professional business and they recieve the respect they have earnt.
Each trade is as important as the next, providing each knows their limits & operates within the scope of their trade. Beleive you are better than all & you will be like any others who act as this, just another poor business owner living in a dream world, unable to make payroll & pay every day bills.
Your statement, framing is engineering to the upmost. To some degree you do have a point there now, because some of the problems I have seen or repaired, could only have been caused by a framer with that type of thinking.

Framers do have the same structural liability as a builder or G/C, as should.
Then again, always being a framer, your knowledge is limited is it not?
A builder or G/C has the responsibility of the project as a whole, not just in part as you.
Always being just a framer, this does not offer you experience in what does or what does not work, because you do not deal with problems you may cause, unless it fails within the first 10 years or so. You can do your center nailing all you want, some materials even forget to put in a nail and it will stand while all materials are new, but you have no idea as to what will happen years down the road that get repaired without bringing you back into the picture.
To many times the builder or g/c has to pick up the liability of the framer because the framer typically don't have enough for anyone to go after.

Finally, there are some great, sincere, framers out there I would be happy to work with or hire, then there is the few like yourself that words just cannot describe.
One of the sad things is you probably own a wife & kids as well.

Merry Christmas & Happy New Years
Hopefully you won;t be waking up with a bad hang over today

Well?? Thanks for the input, and merry X-Mas to you and yours. I have been framing for the last 10 years and concider myself a pretty good one. The 14 years before that I was a structural engineer. Spent 8 years in the navy blowing things up, yes I know a little bit about structures. We build a fairly good home. One little piece of advise, when someone of your superior intellect sticks your foot in your mouth you should never bring the mans wife and kids into it. You should read your own quote and think about this one? Unless I'm missing something the sub-forum for this thread is framing? Happy Holidays!!!

[Ivinni]

You were a structural engineer but gave it up for framing?

[Burby]

Originally Posted by borat_borat1950

Well?? Thanks for the input, and merry X-Mas to you and yours. I have been framing for the last 10 years and concider myself a pretty good one. The 14 years before that I was a structural engineer. Spent 8 years in the navy blowing things up, yes I know a little bit about structures. We build a fairly good home. One little piece of advise, when someone of your superior intellect sticks your foot in your mouth you should never bring the mans wife and kids into it. You should read your own quote and think about this one? Unless I'm missing something the sub-forum for this thread is framing? Happy Holidays!!!

Thanks for the holiday greetings.
You may be a great framer, but spending 8 years in the navy, 14 years as a structural Engineer, your professional manners, you failed to bring with you. With that kind of experience you should know the importance of each trade, without all working together you fail to have a house, instead you end up with a mess.
Having been an Engineer, you should know when others decide to put on an Engineer's hat, (without being one) they have great intentions, but typically cause more problems than fixes. As well as know there are both good & bad in each trade. As well as with your experience you say, you should have by now seen the ones that typiclly boast to be better than all others, typically are in reality only great in their own eyes.
There fore your post took away all credibility in your experience. Regardless where i am today in my profession, I still love to frame, then again I enjoy each trade almost equally. The completion of a house with praise form all other trades working after another is the best way to speak about ones profession, because they either enjoy their part or spend money or delays waiting on or fixing the previous trades errors.

With your experience in Engineering why would you step down in profession to just frame instead of remaining in your field & tripple at least, your money & life?

You are correct about the "Sub"-forum, framing, you failed to state that first go around.
Finally, Construction is not my only profession.
I have spent years working with battered women & children.
In learning the history of either, one typically finds, the one who does the battering, physical and or verbal, does not believe the woman or children are part of sharing & building life together, they are typically viewed as property.
And your post that I first replied to, sounded identical to the boasting of one who the women & children are running from more than not. That is why I said "probably", there is a difference.
More times than not I wish I was wrong, not for the person, but for the woman or child & that scared look they have in their eyes, as well as the memories they will always have to live with.

So based on your post, I didn't put my foot in my mouth & I did not judge you. My opinion was based on your own words, there is a difference there and I am not missing something.

We each prove who we each are. We cannot blame others for seeing who we are.

It is time to enjoy the day, you do the same

[borat_borat1950]

Just caulk and insulate, remodle and repair and leave the building to the framers that do it for a living?

[dkillianjr]

Originally Posted by Ivinni

You were a structural engineer but gave it up for framing?

Theres a smart decision!

[borat_borat1950]

Originally Posted by dkillianjr

Theres a smart decision!

YOU GUYS JUST DON'T GET IT. I do this because I love it, not because I have to. Mr. beaten wife counselor remodeling???? Anyone else who does this just to actually see what you did for the day, and the money isn;t all that important!!

[rustyjames]

Originally Posted by borat_borat1950

...and anybody else who is not a framer, get off on giving us framing advise!!! I have read alot of threads and the most common advise is to seek an arch. or eng. advise. The world we work in is to have these decisions made, mostly by us...

Sorry, but in the real world framers should only build to what's on the drawing and written in the specs.

[wallmaxx]

I knew this guy once...he went the handle KIP. It only took a few posts for me to figure out that I actually knew the guy.

For some reason his nature was to get on sites like this and be an azz. I guess he thought it was fun to spew crap on other people. I don't know...I don't really care. He eventually got banned by Nathan. (He told me he's back on here now....so I will be keeping a close eye out for him.)

I like the guys who come here to give or ask for help or to share what they are up to. The rest of you, who are more than likely just wannabe construction posers, are just wasting everyone's time.

It's funny and sad at the same time.

That's another thing...why don't more of y'all man up and use your real company names...that way you would be more circumspect about what you post. Hiding behind an anonymous tag and spewing junk...ooooooooo that takes ballz of steel (the old crusty, rusty, nasty kind)

Oh and before I forget...Merry Christmas. Y'all hug your kids and wife or whatever....hug something.

[Ivinni]

Originally Posted by wallmaxx

I knew this guy once...he went the handle KIP. It only took a few posts for me to figure out that I actually knew the guy.

For some reason his nature was to get on sites like this and be an azz. I guess he thought it was fun to spew crap on other people. I don't know...I don't really care. He eventually got banned by Nathan. (He told me he's back on here now....so I will be keeping a close eye out for him.)

I like the guys who come here to give or ask for help or to share what they are up to. The rest of you, who are more than likely just wannabe construction posers, are just wasting everyone's time.

It's funny and sad at the same time.

That's another thing...why don't more of y'all man up and use your real company names...that way you would be more circumspect about what you post. Hiding behind an anonymous tag and spewing junk...ooooooooo that takes ballz of steel (the old crusty, rusty, nasty kind)

Oh and before I forget...Merry Christmas. Y'all hug your kids and wife or whatever....hug something.

Ivinni Management, LLC

Anything else Kris Kringle?

I contribute plenty. Mostly insulation and marketing. But it's all for commercial. So you may not read any of it.

Why don't you single out the posers so we will know who they are?

[KentWhitten]

Why was this crap started around Christmas? How about "Merry Christmas to all and a Happy New Year"?

[WarnerConstInc.]

Umm, look mine says my company name, Oh by the way that was a really funny movie you were in, untill you got all naked with that fat hairy guy that was supposed to be watching out for you, how did things work out with Pam And?

[curiouscanuck]

Hey folks,

I've got a question.

In Canada it is defined what practices fall under the carpenter and what practices need a structural engineer. For example, in my area if you are doing a slab you do not need an engineers stamp if it is under 600 sqf, of course the under 600sqf slab still gets inspected prior to the pour by the building inspector... or a Carpenter can design a basic floor system with dimensional lumber, but when working with I-joists you need an engineer.

Not being from the states I might be missing something here, cause it sounds like you folks are saying that the Carpenter doesn't get to make any structural calls.

Matt

[K2]

Originally Posted by framerman

Why was this crap started around Christmas? How about "Merry Christmas to all and a Happy New Year"?

Dit-toe.. Especially Happy New Year..

[wallmaxx]

If you feel defensive...you must be. If you are a stand up guy....then you are.

Now this Borat Borat guy....??? I need to check with the BBB. Anonymity...weak.
Framers are NOT structural engineers (except in your case) and we do not red stamp anything.

KIP was a poser. Merry Christmas Kip.

[Ivinni]

Originally Posted by wallmaxx

If you feel defensive...you must be. If you are a stand up guy....then you are.

Now this Borat Borat guy....??? I need to check with the BBB. Anonymity...weak.
Framers are NOT structural engineers (except in your case) and we do not red stamp anything.

KIP was a poser. Merry Christmas Kip.

Not defensive, just don't care for the shotgun insinuation.

Merry Christmas.

[borat_borat1950]

Originally Posted by wallmaxx

If you feel defensive...you must be. If you are a stand up guy....then you are.

Now this Borat Borat guy....??? I need to check with the BBB. Anonymity...weak.
Framers are NOT structural engineers (except in your case) and we do not red stamp anything.

KIP was a poser. Merry Christmas Kip.

Maxx, I'm not trying to get anyones dander up here, but most of everything I've built comes from blown up's out of mag's or off computers, the plans they do buy come stamped not for construction, and yes I have been around fixing the homes that were built by plans and spec's. ( and passed inspection)I'm trying to say that framers are not just beer drinking idiots that only follow the the little paths that the builders, arch's and engineers lead us down. There are many that just say no, it's my ass if your to cheap to buy this beam! Yes I have a small advantage, I know when to say no. We do not have plan approval here and it's a mess. Rodgers Ark, and over 70,000 went up in the last few years, most front end inspectors have no qualifications, and yes the builders are the same. So it is up to the lowlife drunken framers to make the calls. I have educated many builders on what needs to be done. One told me I'm over building compared to the rest, yet his drywall never cracks, all his windows still open, never had a problem with any of his doors, and I frame them 2" over call. Sorry I started this mess, But people that do not frame have no right to bash on the framer!!!!

[wallmaxx]

Originally Posted by borat_borat1950

I'm trying to say that framers are not just beer drinking idiots that only follow the the little paths that the builders, arch's and engineers lead us down. There are many that just say no, it's my ass if your to cheap to buy this beam! people that do not frame have no right to bash on the framer!!!!

Okay...cool. 100% agree.

If I don't like how something is drawn...I won't build it. When something like that happens I usually draw out how I would suggest it be done. then I flash it by the GC. I let him know I have a working solution...if he goes with my bid, he gets the dwg to submit to the arch/eng. for approval. I might know how to build it right...but I sure don't get paid enough to assume the liability.

Back to your OP...I know more framers who are drunks / meth types than I know solid stand up guys. Thankfully since moving up to WA state...I have had a good run of meeting 5 or 6 good, clean-cut framers. So things are looking good. The only strange thing is that the truss companies up here are 99% of the roof system market and I have yet to meet a framer who can cut a complete, common pitched roof. But that works in my favor.

Good post...framers ARE underappreciated (and under paid) I want 5% of the final "for sale" price of the home. I mean, if the realtor gets 6% for just selling the thing..I mean, C'mon Now?!

[D.Foster]

Originally Posted by borat_borat1950

Maxx, I'm not trying to get anyones dander up here, but most of everything I've built comes from blown up's out of mag's or off computers, the plans they do buy come stamped not for construction, and yes I have been around fixing the homes that were built by plans and spec's. ( and passed inspection)I'm trying to say that framers are not just beer drinking idiots that only follow the the little paths that the builders, arch's and engineers lead us down. There are many that just say no, it's my ass if your to cheap to buy this beam! Yes I have a small advantage, I know when to say no. We do not have plan approval here and it's a mess. Rodgers Ark, and over 70,000 went up in the last few years, most front end inspectors have no qualifications, and yes the builders are the same. So it is up to the lowlife drunken framers to make the calls. I have educated many builders on what needs to be done. One told me I'm over building compared to the rest, yet his drywall never cracks, all his windows still open, never had a problem with any of his doors, and I frame them 2" over call. Sorry I started this mess, But people that do not frame have no right to bash on the framer!!!!

Originally Posted by borat_borat1950

I am a framer. This is a framing forum, where do people like carpenters, remodlers, roffers,(yes I spelled it right), BUILDERS (THE WORST), and anybody else who is not a framer, get off on giving us framing advise!!! I have read alot of threads and the most common advise is to seek an arch. or eng. advise. The world we work in is to have these decisions made, mostly by us, before we get there, our call, our ass! Framing is engineering to the upmost, we build the structure and provide a square and stable structure for the HOMEOWNER. We do not screw the price down so that we can make more money!! As a bonified broke framer I know this. I didn't mean to hurt feelings, but if your not on my end of the rope then you know not where the framer goes after the time clock rings and you all go home???????????

So,Borat, What would you say "people like carpenters" do for a living. I am a Carpenter and do frame to finish. I'm sure if all you do is frame you become more proficient. But anyone who calls themselves a carpenter should be able to do ALL carpentry, Which includes framing to Crown moulding. In the "day" the carpenters were on the job the longest doing it all,Framing,lathe,trim,cabinets. You implied that you dont get enough respect, it comes from giving it too.