mccarty.74

Maybe I'm from the old school, at 28, but I only did 3 4,000 sq. footers in my years. I hate to say it, and I've graduated from this theology since, but I learned primarily on spec homes. Even as a 21 yr. old newbie I knew finger jointed studs were garbage. I'm in University Heights now(don't know if you're familiar with the location) but I don't know Barrington. Cuyahoga or Geauga county? Son of a bitch that's on Sherman rd. in Chesterland isn't it?

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mccarty.74

You can hit my parent's house with a stone from there. Did you build the Bremec's place?

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Warren

Barrington is on the golf course in Aurora next to where Geagua Lake park was. Golf course was designed by Jack Nicklaus.
In the PM I sent you I told you about a house in Boston Heights we finished recently that was 14000 sq ft. I have posted pics on the Picture post here about page 40 I think. They were pics of a dome we framed in that house.

mccarty.74

Well I guess Barrington is a common name. There's a place (same name) near here that outdoes everywhere around it by half a million bucks. Thought it was you because you said E. of Cleveland and the name Barrington. Aurora is certainly a well-to-do area. What do you get a sq. ft?

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mccarty.74

I didn't get that PM.

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rick0913

I usually notch the top plates of my wall & part of the studs (down as far as the plumb cut on the birds mouth).
Just make a 45degree cut that is the 1 1/2" wide (or the width of your hip rafter)then the total length from long point at the center top to the bird's mouth will be right and the heal will be the same as those on the commons. That is only for a "true"hip where the pitches are the same. For valleys I usually end up dropping the heal to allow the jacks to plane to center.

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rick0913

I never heard the seat cut called a HAP before, does anyone know wher the term comes from? or what it stands for?
Just curious.

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rick0913

Hey mccarty, I guess it's been a while since I did any spec houses or framed for a large" production" builder, but they don't use finger jointed studs for load bearing walls do they? I have seen them but assumed they were for non load partitions and such.

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mccarty.74

Rick, one of the two major spec builders used them exclusively from maybe 2000 to 2003. The other major builder used 4x8 1/2" foam insulation in place of OSB except at corners and every 8' there afterward. I don't know how prevalent that was/is elsewhere but I don't like being able to gently shove my index finger through the exterior of a house I'm building. To top that off they pitted every crew against one another (framers are a dime a dozen in Columbus) and if you wouldn't build it for 2.50 sq/ft they'd find somebody who would. I went to two different houses, not one's I built, where the framers missed a brightly orange tagged bearing point by a mile. Sides of the homes looked uneven as pudding sliding down a fridge. F***ers. Sorry, to rant. You just unearthed some of my worst memories in this trade.

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ClemS

hap is not the seat cut, it's an acronym for "height above plate". height of your plumb cut at the outside of a building.

i typically write this measurement down on the template as well as how far the fascia drops below plate line.

knucklehead

I have always called that the" stand"

katoman

Wasn't there a movie about that?

mccarty.74

Thank you Clem. I didn't want to seem as if I hadn't been around long enough to know the term to question it. So as I understand it isn't it the heel heighth in "central Ohioan dialect"? Seat cut, here, would be the number less the plumb cut to make 90 degrees.

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ClemS

HAP is used in a number of framing publications. I don't recall exactly who coined the term. It stuck to me because it's short to write.
In anything more complex than a plain gable or hip, your "stand" or HAP is crucial to how everything lays out. Unequal pitches with cathedral ceilings, unequal pitches with unequal height walls, unequal pitches with same overhang projection - HAP comes very much into play to get everything locked up tight. 4 out of 5 jobs I'm putzing around with the seat cuts and different width boards to make everything come together, because all we usually get down here from the architects is "2x10 16o.c."

mccarty.74

Clem, bear with me here, I hate to be a pain in the ass. If you go to the exterior wall at it's furthest point and measure at a 90 degree angle upwards is that what you call a HAP or "stand"? I hate being stuck in the position of asking all the questions but, I'm proactive in my approach, having been isolated to this specific region I'd not come across either of those terms. Feel free to answer " Am I an idiot for not having heard them?" I subscribe to JLC but it's hit or miss on framing articles.

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rick0913

that makes it easy to remember i always called it the heel height and i agree that this number is critical especially when the hip end is different pitch than the common side, been framing over 20yrs and still learning

I AM REALLY GLAD TO HAVE FOUND SUCH A GROUP OF PROFFESIONAL TRADESMEN SO FEW LEFT WHO UNDERSTAND STICK FRAMED ROOFS

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Birch

Greetings, this is my first post on over here at CT. I hope it is well received.

Regular or Irregular Hips and Valleys can be marked and cut as simply as a common. The length, the pitch cuts, and the cheek cut bevels change…. but the basic marking concept can remain the same (marked on the side face, and dimensioned along/from the top (or bottom) shoulder). They share the same ridge height and the same Heel Stand Height, (aka HAP), and they reach from the same plate to the same ridge, and they are contained in the same plane(s). The biggest differences between the two types of rafters, (H/V Vs. Common), is the cheek bevels are square at both ends on the commons and are plan angle beveled (parallel at both ends?) on the H/V’s and they are contained in both adjacent intersecting roof planes.

I Have a Sketchup tutorial posted over at the JLC Rough Framing forum in the 'Roof Cutter's Basics' thread. You’ll need Sketchup to view it. It is intended to show how Hips and Valleys can be viewed as ‘Cut in Place’.

Search for thread 'Roof Cutter's Basics' or thread No. 43256

(Sorry, I tried to paste the link but I don't have the required 15 prior posts yet and *.skp files will not attach)

(Click on the scenes’ Tabs across the top to view the scenes in sequence)

If you grasp the concept I’m showing in the Hip and Valley Demo.skp movie you will also see how this eliminates (the confusion of) Dropping, or Shifting, or any extra adjustments needed to bring the H/V back into plane. The method is really only limited by the capacity of the saw to cut bevels through the boards. For single thickness Regular H/V rafters (1-1/2” or 1-3/4”) the standard circular saws can be used. For bastard roofs you will need a saw that cuts bevels up to 56-60 degrees and also cuts deeper. For beam thick rafters you’ll need to modify the cutting approach or use a swing table beam saw, or both. (I show the heel cuts of the irregular H/V’s cut with diamonds. For production cuts w/boxed soffits I usually just cut the heel relieved (square beveled like a common) to clear the corner and use the original pencil line (HAP line) to locate the rafter’s heel placement. This method places irregular H/V rafters proportionally, not equally divided (in two or split centered), because of the perpendicular relationships of the cheek bevel points.

Calc, mark, cut. It only fits in one place, that’s where it goes, and it always fits perfect.

loneframer

I followed 100%. I always deduct the ridge thickness on a true hip roof before calculating my lengths, therefore eliminating deductions for thickness. I always bevel the heel cut at the plateline to parallel the ridge cut. Like you said, it only fits in one place. With bastard hips/valleys, I calculate from the outside of the overhang to the center of the ridge, then make deductions to get the centerlines correct. This allows for an equal soffit overhang. The heel cut is then determined by the rise from bottom of fascia to the plateline. I always snap a small mock-up of the bastard angles to get a reference for layout at the plateline, as the hip will not sit centered on the corner of the wall.

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ClemS

my hips are never exactly the same length, so i tend to pre-cut all the tails on my hip boards and then pull measurements when the pushers are up. in some rare situations where i don't get any commons or no pushers i'll calc the length and slap it around a little to make it work

FRAMERBEN

So lets talk about how to figure the drop of a bastard hip. Thanks for any info in advance.

Ben