Framing Into Concrete Ceiling

user17661

I just started a remodel job where my customer is having me remove her drop ceiling in her 1st floor kitchen, however - it requires fastening new 2by4 headers to a 1+1/4" inch thick concrete ceiling. The concrete ceiling is nearly 30 years old and is harder than nails.

I've tried...

first - $300 hitachi round head 3 1/4" x .131 framing nailer @ 120psi - failed. senco branded nail tips bent away from the concrete and embed themselves back into the 2by4.

second - 3/16" tapcon screws using a 5/32" carbide 'tapcon' branded drill bits. this method works, but the the bits are rendered useless after just one pilot hole. at $3/bit and at least 100 holes to drill, this isn't cost or time effective as it's very difficult to get the pilot hole drilled - each hole took 20-25 minutes.

third - I also tried the larger 3/16" drill bits, but they too failed to work after just one hole. took even longer than the 5/32" bits (30 minutes per hole).

as I am replacing the drop ceiling, whatever method I use must be strong enough to hold the 2by4's and new 1/2" drywall over a 9' x 12' area. I'm thinking 4 anchors per 2by4 x 96"

please respond if you have had success with any other method - no matter what the expense. because I just don't have experience with concrete, and most of my framing has been wood to wood, or wood to block I don't know if there is a tool out there for this job - nor do I have a lot of time to waste on this portion of the project. I am looking for a quick, yet thorough and stable solution.

FRAMERS... HELP PLEASE! And please accept my thanks in advance for your suggestions.

mickeyco

Need more info, you building a wall or hanging a 2 x 4 (what's a 2x4 header? do you mean top plate). The one thing I can tell you from experience is make sure there is no radiant heat tubes inside the concrete you are drilling into or it will get a lot more expensive.

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Some people climb mountains. I take out the trash. But we both do it for the same reason.

mdshunk

Bosch has a line of bits called "Blue Granite" bits that are good for this hard stuff like that. I've drilled limestone with them. Alternately, rent one of the bigger HILTI guns, and shoot HILTI pins through the top plate into the concrete. A 27 cal, at least. Some of the rental stores still have the 38's. It would be handy if you knew what sort of hardness you were deailing with, but I know you can fire HILTI pins into anything if you pick the right gun, right load, and right pin.

neolitic

Are you using a hammer drill? Is it set to "hammer"? Those bits will handle some pretty tuff stuff, but you can melt the tip if you're just spinning.
Where are you that they use 1¼" concrete for ceilings? Is it also a roof deck/ second floor slab?

mdshunk

Just thought I should ask this, on an off chance...

When you were drilling with the Tapcon bit, you were using a hammer drill, weren't you? Just though I should ask, just in case. If you try to drill masonry without a hammer drill (spinning only), you'll burn a bit blue in no time flat.

neolitic

Great minds.....?
Maybe not so much,eh?


I don't think I'd "hang" a ceiling off Hilti or Ramset pins, if that's what you really mean here.

Celtic

I'd go with something more like this:



KB-TZ Expansion Anchor



or this...



Hilti Kwik Bolt 3 Mechanical Anchor




Both come in a wide range of diameters and lengths.

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mdshunk

Yeah, we must have been having a typing race. Since we both thought of that, maybe that's the case? If not, I know I've run into some old concrete that was pretty tough to drill with a hammer drill. I know a cheap hammer drill doesn't do as good of a job as a good hammer drill will with the exact same bit (compare the performance of the same bit in a Milwaukee Magnum (cheaper) versus a Milwaukee Thunderbolt (more expensive), for instance). Occasionally, some concrete will burn the carbide right off the bit in one hole anyhow, no matter how good of a hammer drill you're using. It seems like it's mostly old decks where I run into this super hard stuff.

mdshunk

I wouldn't hesitate for a second. Ever seen the charts that show the loading for these things? It's incredible, particularly when multiple fasteners are used at intervals.

These are interesting too:
http://www.powers.com/pdfs/submittal...0Submittal.pdf

Celtic

Speaking of hammer drills...

These are is NOT hammer drills:






....these are drills that spins real fast and make a lot of noise...



You need a HAMMER drill...
These ARE hammer drills:





These type drills will beat the snot out of just anything in their way


Hilti, Bosch....a few other brands are the "elite".

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mickeyco

Doesn't that seem a little thin for a concrete ceiling?

__________________
Some people climb mountains. I take out the trash. But we both do it for the same reason.

send_it_all

YES..

neolitic

My point too, wonder what part of the country this happens in. Perhaps a weekend warrior who doesn't know nomenclature?

Md "wouldn't hesitate for a second. Ever seen the charts that show the loading for these things? It's incredible, particularly when multiple fasteners are used at intervals."

If it's plates -- good as gold. If it's withdrawal, and it's really 1¼" concrete, I think he'll have so much blow-out it'll be iffy at best.

neolitic

Hmmm, To hammer drill or to rotary hammer? That is the question!

user17661

Allow me to answer some of your questions to help clarify this situation. I had worked a 12 hour day when I posted my question and I mixed up a key term. I said header when I should have said joist.

I'm trying to create a joist system in which I will attach a drywall ceiling to. Yes, I'm trying to 'hang' a ceiling, however I have nothing to attach the joists to except for the concrete 2nd floor slab (which seems thin, yet is hard as nails). At a drilling depth of just 1+1/4", the drill bit no longer runs into resistance. In this kitchen, the exterior walls and ceiling structure are concrete, not block.

Originally, the framer used a few 2x4s laid flat against the ceiling to assist in the creation of a drop ceiling. In the center of this room, the drop ceiling has a cut-out, where 4 sets of tube lighting reside. My client wants the drop ceiling removed completely so I must find a new way to hang a ceiling to this concrete 2nd floor slab. It appears as if the framer who installed those 2x4's used a nail gun of some type - as the heads of the nails (or anchors) are recessed into the 2x4's.

I'm in Orlando, so the ceiling and surrounding walls will not contain heating elements.

Regarding my drilling method. I used a non-hammering drill... which is probably why the bits melted.

I'm sorry, but I have no idea how hard the concrete is... so I can't give you a rating. All I know is the depth.

So based on this additional information, should I go with a Hilti or Bosch hammer drill to drill out pilot holds for tapcon anchors? Or should I got with the quick bolt anchors? Or should I rent a big gun to shoot spikes into the 2x4s (if so.. which gun, which fastener?) I'm a novice at working with concrete (obviously). Thanks so much for your suggestions.

neolitic

Still puzzled by the thickness. Only picture I can get is maybe some sort of precast box beam thing, sure woul be nice to know what happens after you push through the "void". Anyway, I'd still be concerned with blow out using powder actuated. Tapcons or expansion anchors sound safer to me, and a hammer drill ought to be fine for 3/16 bit--Hilti or Milwaukee roto-hammer makes sense if you're going with some kind of expansion deal that wants a ¾ or 1" hole.

user17661

I'd post a picture, but I'm forbidden to post links to other sites without first reaching a 15 post threshold.

try this.. of course you'll need to replace the dot with a period, delete the spaces etc

http colon slash slash tripple w dot altruisticbeings dot com /images/ceilingview.jpg

and /images/altview.jpg
and /images/altview2.jpg

user17661

Home Depot has a Hilti SKU # 336763 for $240

or should I spend about $100 more on this one: Hilti SKU # 369025 which is also at Home Depot?

Thanks for your opinions!

Celtic

http://www.altruisticbeings.com/images/altview.jpg



http://www.altruisticbeings.com//images/altview2.jpg

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user17661

Thank you for posting my pictures, Celtic. Hopefully the pictures will clear up what I'm trying to accomplish.

Where you see the remaining drywall, my client wants to keep her drop ceiling. This will yield a drop ceiling around the western and southern perimeter of the room, following the flow of the counter space. I'll be replacing the tube lighting with multiple recessed cans over those counter spaces. Surrounding the the current tube lighting cut-out, I will be cutting the dropped joists, and fastening new joists across the room to gain 9" of clearance, thereby 'opening up' the room.

In the first picture posted, you can see the 2x4 I successfully anchored to the cement ceiling with Tapcon screws. The 4 pilot holes required to anchor that 2x4 only took 80 minutes to drill out. The second picture more clearly shows the successfully anchored 2x4x96.

Neolitic - thanks for steering me away from a powder actuated gun. I concur with your concerns.

I'm going to research renting a powerful Hilti rotating hammer drill and will purchase additional bits. If this route is successful, I'll post my comments about the experience.

Thanks to all for your suggestions.