Experience For Framing?

joasis

A little debate made me wonder what our members overall think about the experience required to be called a framer. Yes, there are classifications like apprentice, journeyman, master, etc., but this is a poll and discussion about real world, without bragging, how long it took you from 0 experience to where you could lay out a single story home from blueprints and cut in a roof....this isn't about the business side of it, like ordering the material package, or pricing, or doing take-offs. Just how long it took you to get from 0 to being a framer?

It will be interesting to see the opinions.....and mine is this: I have learned a lot of things tougher then framing. I will qualify this by saying that there are some challenging framing projects that require a lot of experience, but this poll is about single story, single family homes.

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thom

I think of a framer as being a small subset of the skills needed to be a carpenter.

One can be a framer if he can swing a hammer and put studs/cripples/trimmers on the correct marks.

Ability to do layout, cut stairs, cut rafters, etc. would be an advanced framer, or even a carpenter (assuming he knows how to trim).

Cole

I am going to say more then 3 years to be able to take a print from slab to dry-in stage.

I am going off of my age though and I started framing when I was 13. Now if you were an apprentice at say age 26, I think if you pay attention and have the willingness to learn, it can be done in under 3 years but I would not want him doing anything other then 1200-1500sf single story homes.

I started out with a bunch of other guys my same age and after 3 years, I was way ahead of them with work capabilities.

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joasis

I didn't learn to hand cut a roof until a few years later, but I was doing the layout on tract homes (trussed roof, ranch plan) my second summer.

Everyone learns at a different pace, but with a strong desire, and ability, with the right guy showing you instead of berating you, frame 10 or so homes, customs, and you will know what is going on.

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Cole

I agree, a lot of it has to do with the teacher of the skill.

For me it came easy, but I loved the work and wanted to learn how to do things. I know that is not the case for everyone.

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BuiltByMAC

I started out at 0 when we were building our own house. After that was complete, I kept framing with that company. After 2 years of framing, I feel that I could wear the title "competent framer."
Note, all our roofs were truss systems - learning to handcut a roof (especially some of these McMansion complex roofs) would be a whole 'nother skill set.

But for the purposes of your poll and how you lined out the criteria, I'd say 2 years. (Problem with the poll is some people just take longer to learn things, some people get it right away, and some never learn!)

Mac

skyhook

2 years at Community College and 2 years apprentice, minimum to run a crew.
Some guys have been framing for 20 plus years and still don't know how to read plans. They frame as they go. I don't use them.
Others that read plans but do a crappy job.
Some that read plans but don't follow them.
If you want it done right, be there to supervise or better yet, do it yourself.

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KentWhitten

Easily more than 3 years. Much of my teaching was actually in math class in school. Knowing absolutely positively without a doubt how it goes together is when you should call yourself experienced in any trade. I would say 10 years for myself. Even today I learn things.

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joasis

I would never suggest that learning ends anywhere....I still see tricks I hadn't know existed, and framing techniques that are changing every year as the old traditionalists get over it....Given the criteria of ability, which would include the math skills, and a practical understanding + a willing to learn attitude? Shouldn't take long.....

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reveivl

Once you include stick framing a roof on top of the rest of it (pun intended) you might be able able to learn it in under three years, but you won't do it well, and you won't do it fast.

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From where does knowledge come? If you need to know what is in a box, you could ask someone (not reliable), you could pray, (not useful), you can consult with the scripture (not helpful) or you could open the box (science)

2ndGen

Great post. I just began going to school to learn framing academically. I'm very proud of my skills as a Master Roofer, but as a Framer, I consider myself a baby.

I look foward to spending the next few years learning. Because of my previous experience with the trades, I'm told by old timers I've worked with who've been very happy with my work with them that I should be able to be proficient within a year, but I'd say, I'd have to be working in the trade a good 5 years before I could say that I am a Framer.

Most Roofers don't frame roofs. We're excellent at reinforcing existing strcutures, at reconstructing sections that were rotted, but I don't know of any Roofers who frame roofs as well. That would definately set me apart in the field.

So far, outside of my roofing related framing work, as a working Carpenter over the last couple of years, I've been thrown right into high end work without ever having had a chance to learn the fundamentals (which I feel are the most important thing to learn in any trade). That's why I'm putting myself through school.

I'd frame for free if I didn't need to make a living. My trade as a Roofer was handed down to me by my father. But framing? That I love for the sake of loving it. I love everything about it...picking out the stock, laying it out, doing the math, transforming what are on plans into a physical structure, laying out the foundation for the finishers to come in and pretty it up. To me, a row of sticks uniformally installed is a work of art. I love to cut wood, to bring it together and to make it look as if it grew that way. I love the smell of sawdust.

I respect the trade to learn it the right way. In class first. Then, while my Roofers are working my business, I'll be apprenticing myself out to any Framer that'll have me. Imagine that...me, a business owner working for another contractor in a different field. Now that's love.

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"I've been up on the roof. I know what those guys go through.
My whole life has been about making that profession respectable."
Ken Hendricks
www.SolutionsRoofing.com

A W Smith

The easy part is learning to layout all the floors, exterior walls , bearing walls, ceilings, partitions etc so that all the joists, studs, etc land on top of each other which makes life easy for the HVAC or Plumbing contractors. The hard part is doing unequal pitch or cut up roofs so that all the soffits and facia lines up. Trusses don't count, thats cheating.


Heres another question that may even deserve its own survey.

here in NJ I was taught long ago to stick frame with lose studs. That is . stand the walls up with the top plate already doubled, the tops of the studs toe nailed to them. the bottom of the studs lose and then toe nailed to the shoe already in place when the wall is stood up. For me anyway. it seems faster. I'm working with a guy (Eddie) who framed in Nevada and he really wanted to box frame the walls of this garage addition we are doing and stand them up and drop the shoe over the foundation bolts. And double plate the tops later. at 53 I don't like to be walking along the tops of my walls nailing off plate. and it didn't seem like a good idea to be wrestling a 22 foot long wall 9 feet high over foundation bolts shin high. So we did it my way. He was surprised how easy it was. I guess he didn't remember framing for me 16 years ago. This seems to be a regional thing.

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Brock

The day you can cut the stick frame hip roof with just the print in front of you with no mistakes (and keep two men running on the plates to nail your cuts you haven't learned framing. Took me about 6 years of hell in three different states to learn it completely.

joasis

I haven't stick framed a new construction roof in a long time, and don't care to anymore...simply because there are better ways, IMO, to do it now...such as the truss systems. I saw one a year ago assembled on the lot next to the house, decking and all, then lifted into place with a crane. Thinking outside the box. Trusses do not have to be 4/12's on a rectangle ranch plan. These were 9/12's and as cut up as most customs get.

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Brock

Trusses here is all we use. I'm talking about when I was a wee lad back in the late 70's early 80's. Most municipalities did not have a truss co. The newb's in here that are so called "framers" have it made in a shade IMHO. Stick filling a couple valleys on a truss roof is about as complicated as it gets anymore. Sure, you will have a manserd take off around the corner, or some odd pitch changes that you have to stick fill, and it will take someone with a good bit of experience in these situations, but you catch my drift. Once you get a guy that understands the math and has enough experience to visualize it then you have a guy that will soon be leaving to go out on his own. God be with him.

reveivl

Try learning it with timbers and no steel fasteners! A 2x anything held together with nails/plates/hangers and covered with drywall seems trivial after that, and it's all exposed for inspection forever.

__________________
From where does knowledge come? If you need to know what is in a box, you could ask someone (not reliable), you could pray, (not useful), you can consult with the scripture (not helpful) or you could open the box (science)

Cole

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Brock

I would volunteer my services for free if they would allow me the oppurtunity and if I could swing the time off ofcourse.

dlcj

I would volunteer my services for free if they would allow me the oppurtunity and if I could swing the time off ofcourse.[/QUOTE]
Me too. Im gettin tired of the same o same o .I have drawn up a 4000' timber frame home to build for myself in 5 to 10 years, prolly never, cant hurt to dream. As for the question i would say 5 years for myself but that was learning on only 1 to 1-1/2 houses a year (most story and half) plus as many additions and remodles and alot of pourches decks etc.

2ndGen

That was my last class. We're building a small house from sill to roof. Then, it will be rolled into the Plumbers/Electricians class where they'll hack into it to do their work.

I'm loving all the intricacies of why an openining needs to be reinforced and how one comes up with the size needed of a joist system to support the given loads. It's a brain buster. I love challenges like that.

__________________
"I've been up on the roof. I know what those guys go through.
My whole life has been about making that profession respectable."
Ken Hendricks
www.SolutionsRoofing.com