Customer wants major detail ignored. - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

nEighter · 09-21-2009, 03:45 PM

Customer needs to have the lap siding on the front of his house replaced. It is full on blown around a window. The lap siding is the old masonite type lap siding.

He wants me to remove all the lap on the front of the house. He doesn't want the trim taken off, but wants a water barrier (tar paper) used and just in his words "butted up to the trim". I told him this defeats the purpose and that it truly does need to go under the trim to make it a true water barrier. He doesn't want to spend the extra money for the new trim and labor to replace it.

So what is a guy to do? Do it and possibly open myself up for MAJOR litigation in the future? Have him sign off on it as being a choice of his not mine taking me out of liability? Man I cannot pass this job up, but jeez... can't just go into this doing what is not right.

What do you guys think? Devil's advocate? Thanks in advance

ibarnes · 09-21-2009, 03:54 PM

I wouldn't do it. When a problem arises later, he won't be showing the signed release of liability form when he is trashing your name.

JumboJack · 09-21-2009, 03:58 PM

In Kalifornia you can get in trouble for "Willful disregard of plans and specifications" and "Willful disregard and violation of building laws".I doubt it would mater if the customer ok'ed it or not. Just my 0.02...

neolitic · 09-21-2009, 04:03 PM

How much trim?
Have you given him a price?
Can you "throw it in," and
hide it in your price?

JonM · 09-21-2009, 04:08 PM

Caulk comes in all sizes....

Get a signature...

mikec · 09-21-2009, 04:19 PM

Some of the houses around here, have tar paper behind the window trim, but no where else on the walls.

skyhook · 09-21-2009, 04:31 PM

When the HO tells me how to do my job, I walk.
Flash it with sisal kraft and firring to hold it down.
Construction Rule #1, the last person to touch it, owns it.

DavidC · 09-21-2009, 04:47 PM

The language in your waiver should state that you and the client agree that you discussed with the client the proper method, a description of that method, that you stated it was the best course of action and that the client chose the method that he would pay for based on the cost and the client will accept liability for all the resulting consequences. Include a description of the method he chose for good measure and a hold harmless clause to protect you, your business and your employees.

So right up front, you can't get much more honest with the client about what he's asking for. Put it in writing in your proposal or contract and review the document thoroughly with him. He may realize that you have his best interest in mind and give you the go ahead on your method.

Know in advance that if some future action brings you to court over this, chances are your waiver will get thrown out leaving you as the expert that should have known better. So, what are the chances of this ever going to court? I googled a customer's name once and discovered that he was no rookie when it came down to being in court with contractors.

Good Luck
Dave

nEighter · 09-21-2009, 05:26 PM

Thanks guys. I am going to go through the motions of going out and look over it again, and let him know I am going to stand on my principals. I quoted this job almost 3 months ago and just called him today to get the sale. He told me he wanted to go with me BUT... and then said I needed to sharpen my pencil.. it has been sharpened to the metal band around the eraser.. no more sharpening can be done. So I will see what happens. I hate to loose this job, but if I do I am thinking it may be better. I know how courts can be, and perfectly legitimate evidence thrown out because of some bs loophold. No thank you.

**Gus Dering** · 09-21-2009, 05:41 PM

If the trim proves to have some rot on it you could get your way. Might be worth a poke or two to find out.

If you were to lift the trim up a bit and slide the paper in over the old with a bed of caulk above and below the new paper. Then set the trim back into the goo. Along with new head flashing. And the final caulking of course. Would you feel more comfortable about the envelope holding water?

If I was in a position where I really needed the job I would just find some happy median to get it done and know it will hold water through the warranty period and beyond. Thats just me though.

Warren · 09-21-2009, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nEighter

Thanks guys. I am going to go through the motions of going out and look over it again, and let him know I am going to stand on my principals. I quoted this job almost 3 months ago and just called him today to get the sale. He told me he wanted to go with me BUT... and then said I needed to sharpen my pencil.. it has been sharpened to the metal band around the eraser.. no more sharpening can be done. So I will see what happens. I hate to loose this job, but if I do I am thinking it may be better. I know how courts can be, and perfectly legitimate evidence thrown out because of some bs loophold. No thank you.

This is why all my estimates are done with a pen. I can't sharpen my pen.

nEighter · 09-21-2009, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Dering

If the trim proves to have some rot on it you could get your way. Might be worth a poke or two to find out.

If you were to lift the trim up a bit and slide the paper in over the old with a bed of caulk above and below the new paper. Then set the trim back into the goo. Along with new head flashing. And the final caulking of course. Would you feel more comfortable about the envelope holding water?

If I was in a position where I really needed the job I would just find some happy median to get it done and know it will hold water through the warranty period and beyond. Thats just me though.

I see what you are saying. I am going to go over the whole thing tomorrow and figure out the best way to get it done. He told me the other guy's estimates on it.. one guy said he would replace ALL lap after putting the tarpaper on for $1500.00

the other guy was about $19,000.00 more than my estimate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren

This is why all my estimates are done with a pen. I can't sharpen my pen.

Hahaha.. I like that

**Leo G** · 09-21-2009, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nEighter

one guy said he would replace ALL lap after putting the tarpaper on for $1500.00

the other guy was about $19,000.00 more than my estimate.

OK ma'am/sir, I have come up with your estimate. I can guaranty that the price will be somewhere between $1500 and $19,000.

spdtrx · 09-21-2009, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JumboJack

In Kalifornia you can get in trouble for "Willful disregard of plans and specifications" and "Willful disregard and violation of building laws".I doubt it would mater if the customer ok'ed it or not. Just my 0.02...

Bingo.

Do it right or don't do it at all.

jhark123 · 09-21-2009, 10:27 PM

meh, if you need the work you need the work.

Get it in writing as stated above and then caulk the sh$t out of thos corners with quad. I mean ugly, grossly overboard caulking

**Double-A** · 09-21-2009, 10:39 PM

One siding job will never be worth the headache of litigation if someone down the road decides you owe them because of an improper job.

Sharpen your pencil? You can watch reruns of the Andy Griffith show and not make any money. Churning money is not the same thing as making a profit. If this man has a budget in mind, you should know what it is. You can't offer him alternatives if he's not leveling with you. If he's not leveling with you, he doesn't trust you. If he doesn't trust you, you're not the company for him.

Just my opinion.

Metro M & L · 09-21-2009, 11:00 PM

If you need the job you need the job. Hire a helper for $200.00 and have them take off all the trim day 1 and replace and paint day 2 or suck it up and just do the work yourself. Unemployment in my state is 15%. If I have to work six or seven days a week then so be it; there will be a roof over my family's head.

abacab · 09-22-2009, 09:33 PM

Can't you pry the trim up a hair and slip the paper in?

Birch · 09-22-2009, 09:42 PM

There is an old saying in the exterior trim world,

"The painters need that gap so their caulk doesn't fall out."

And it is true.

I would not hesitate to do that job and I'd gap it for caulk. Flash the head trim of course.

nEighter · 09-22-2009, 09:44 PM

yeah abacab. I have been going over the numbers, and I forgot (since it was nearly 2 months ago) that I quoted the guy a SLAMMIN good deal. It is now past the time that that estimate is good for, and honestly I want to write the estimate to what it should have been to begin with. I am torn as to what to do. I have a good feeling that the guy will go elsewhere if I do that.. so I am thinking about changing the scope of work a bit and work in slipping it under the trim.. and some other downgrades and chalk it up to him not taking the estimate when he should have. Would save me in labor and some material, and the overall project would not be sacrificed, if nothing else would be better. IF nothing else I will stick to the same price and yeah.. take out a few things like replacing the trim.

I got 2 calls today and looked at a place on saturday I am working on an estimate for right now... so he is not the only fish on the fryer.

What do you guys know about this? What is your experience with people calling you a period of time after your estimate was given and wants it for the same or lower price? What has been your experience with them taking the job still? This is a bit new to me, usually it is a yes or no and the work is done.. not left and gets worse, them then telling you they want it for less..