Custom In The Woodlands,TX

**loneframer** · 03-20-2010, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpatrix

Come on Lone, I've seen you run a router over advantech wall sheathing, don't tell me you wouldn't bevel in this situation either.

And like I keep telling my guys, nailing off that 16/12 decking is much easier on the back than subfloor, it's just walking on it that's tough.

You're right, I'd have 2 saws set up. 1 on the bevel and 1 square, but that doesn't mean anyone but us would notice, except for the fact that the pics are plastered all over this site.

It's the nature of the "Super Framer" though, you have to keep challenging yourself to get better or else it becomes nothing more than monotony.

Birch · 03-21-2010, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpatrix

Kyle,

My crew sheathes the walls, and all that goes along with that- the WRB, flashing to an extent, and windows and doors. The roof deck is also part of my contract, but I sub that out most of the time. It is just more cost effective, except on smaller jobs.

When things were really booming here, the deck crew I use would have 240 sheets down in about five to six hours. On one job, they were about 3 days out, so I decided to do it with my crew. It took us a lot longer, in part because we weren't used to doing it anymore, and also they outnumbered us 3 to 1. We were five guys, they had fifteen. The cost difference to me was an eye opener. In some cases, one of my guys makes as much as three of them, and my lowest paid guy makes about the same as the deckers highest paid guy.

Of course the skill set is not the same. These sheathers are mostly young guys who started out packing lumber then moved up to either nailing or cutting, and that's about the the extent of their experience. They don't know how to frame walls or roll joists, much less do punch out or trim. Which is what I need the skilled guys focusing on now.

As far as sheathing the walls goes, I've tried it on concrete slabs, and it just doesn't work. The humps and dips cause too many headaches. Sometimes we have to trim studs down to keep everything both plumb and level. While this house had a pretty good slab, there were still some places that had corrective measures. Then there were the 60' long by 10'8" tall walls on the first floor, before we had a lift. Now on the house next door....

John K.,

These days, the lumber yards around here have plenty of time to spare, I can’t imagine that it is a whole lot different in Houston. I have a decking suggestion for you. But it is not like you haven’t done it this way either, so if this is how you do them, great! See you at choir practice.

Have the decking sent out with a forklift and tell them that the lift is necessary for staging material and will extend the delivery time by a half hour. Have the fork lift driver help you stock the materials in an advantageous manner by lifting it to the second floor level where needed and manually stocking it around on the floor or attic spaces.

When decking roofs steeper than 10/12 I like to cut in the attic or second floor spaces and feed the sheets through the rafters. I put one toe-board per 4’ course and nail it as I go. The row itself provides a hand hold for the nailers and that will speed up production by limiting the movement of the guys up top. Steep roofs often have ample cut station space under them too.

Nice job you have there. Keep up the good work!

PS

I hear you about using subcontract deckers! I’ve used decking subs too, but for the most part they disappointed me by not doing near the same job I would do. They waste material, nail off poorly, often create booby traps for the roofers, and I have even had them cut up the leftovers and throw them in the dumpster to increase the sheet/$ charges. So I tend to deck my own roofs.

I did have one good decker years ago, but he was expensive too. Another funny thing is; I’m usually faster than most decking crews and I can’t stand to pay someone ‘too much’, or more than I make myself, to do something that is very easy to do, do it poorly, and it is something I can do faster, cheaper, and more efficiently myself. But a good one can speed the job up by freeing me up to punch it out at the same time.

Cheers!

Richard

sbebuilders · 03-21-2010, 11:42 AM

I see the 16/12 roof sheathing as a no-brainer on this 10,000 sqft house. Hire the plywood subcontractor, as long as he has his own insurance, and spend a day cleaning up and fixing any of the roof sheathing that your not happy with. Or use your own crew and listen to them wine and cry all day as their trying to install 75 pound sheets of 3/4" T&G on an 16/12 roof. Then your crew would be bascily worthless for about a week after the roof sheathing was complete.

About 6 months ago I asked John if the Arcus blade was worth the cost for cutting 2x radius rafters. John said it was worth the cost. What he should have said You would be a **** idiot not to use the Arcus blade for cutting 200 radius rafter tails.

Well, you would have to be an **** idiot not to hire a subcontractor to roof sheathe a 10,000 sqft house with 340 sheets of 3/4" T&G.

Sim

note: Richard... shouldn't it be [ I was usually faster than most decking crews].

Birch · 03-21-2010, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbebuilders

I see the 16/12 roof sheathing as a no-brainer on this 10,000 sqft house. Hire the plywood subcontractor, as long as he has his own insurance, and spend a day cleaning up and fixing any of the roof sheathing that your not happy with. Or use your own crew and listen to them wine and cry all day as their trying to install 75 pound sheets of 3/4" T&G on an 16/12 roof. Then your crew would be bascily worthless for about a week after the roof sheathing was complete.

About 6 months ago I asked John if the Arcus blade was worth the cost for cutting 2x radius rafters. John said it was worth the cost. What he should have said You would be a **** idiot not to use the Arcus blade for cutting 200 radius rafter tails.

Well, you would have to be an **** idiot not to hire a subcontractor to roof sheathe a 10,000 sqft house with 340 sheets of 3/4" T&G.

Sim

note: Richard... shouldn't it be [ I was usually faster than most decking crews].

Sim,

I don’t remember telling anyone to be a ‘****ing Idiot’.

I wonder what John’s decker wants to do the decking? That has a little to do with who does it, doesn’t it? I definitely would try to find a sub first to speed things along. But if I couldn’t, it is not that big a deal.

As the framer I always felt I had an advantage over the sub deckers because I already had the decking install planned to go smoothly. I was always there, thinking ahead, I could help stage the materials intelligently, and I rotated my guys, and the tasks, so they wouldn’t get burned out from being on the same end throughout the task. Also, there are plenty of things to do out there, you can take a break from decking and do something else, pick up the decking again in the morning. It all has to get done.

I do agree that you don’t want to kill your men doing anything. Work smarter, not harder, Smooth Framing beats Rough Framing any day. Just got to stay busy, and you can easily do that without killing anyone.

But thanks for your thoughtful comments.

Richard

sbebuilders · 03-21-2010, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Birch

Sim,

I don’t remember telling anyone to be a ‘****ing Idiot’.

I wonder what John’s decker wants to do the decking? That has a little to do with who does it, doesn’t it? I definitely would try to find a sub first to speed things along. But if I couldn’t, it is not that big a deal.

As the framer I always felt I had an advantage over the sub deckers because I already had the decking install planned to go smoothly. I was always there, thinking ahead, I could help stage the materials intelligently, and I rotated my guys, and the tasks, so they wouldn’t get burned out from being on the same end throughout the task. Also, there are plenty of things to do out there, you can take a break from decking and do something else, pick up the decking again in the morning. It all has to get done.

I do agree that you don’t want to kill your men doing anything. Work smarter, not harder, Smooth Framing beats Rough Framing any day. Just got to stay busy, and you can easily do that without killing anyone.

But thanks for your thoughtful comments.

Richard

Richard,
I wasn't referring to myself as an **** idiot. It was just a general statement. I only mentioned your name in my post regarding the I’m usually faster statement. Both of us were usually faster at everything ... when we were in our 20's,30's,40's. At our age we need to use the word was instead of I am.

John,

I kept our forklift rental for an extra 5 days on our current job. It cost me $2800 a month and for the 5 extra days it cost me $2500. For the extra $2500 it cost me I could have hired a plywood tech (subcontractor) to roof sheet our house. I'll never do that again.

Sim

kpatrix · 03-21-2010, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbebuilders

Richard,
I wasn't referring to myself as an **** idiot. It was just a general statement. I only mentioned your name in my post regarding the I’m usually faster statement. Both of us were usually faster at everything ... when we were in our 20's,30's,40's. At our age we need to use the word was instead of I am.

John,

I kept our forklift rental for an extra 5 days on our current job. It cost me $2800 a month and for the 5 extra days it cost me $2500. For the extra $2500 it cost me I could have hired a plywood tech (subcontractor) to roof sheet our house. I'll never do that again.

Sim

Sim,

Our forklift cost was originally going to be 800 a week, which the builder was going to pay. We were going to send it back and then get it again a couple of weeks later when needed again. I decided it would be better to keep it, so I told the builder I would split the additional costs of keeping it for a month. The final charge for 2-16 thru 3-18 was just over 1800. Of that I pay 500. We got a good deal from the rental company.

As far as the decking crew is concerned, the cost for them is almost double what is normally charged. This isn't a 7/12 with 7/16 OSB on it, so of course it will run more.

I do the same things with guys and tasks, keep them rotating to prevent burnout. I started out cutting rafters, and did almost all of them. When we started on the center section of the house, I wanted to be up nailing. And some guys who were nailing are now sheathing the walls.

I will be back down cutting tomorrow, using the Arcus blade for the radius rafters. There are 50 on the front of the house and about the same on the two garages, with radii between 14' and 16'6. There is also a couple of sections with ~7' radius to do. More than likely there will be two of us cutting.

This part is really going to give the house it's look, and I am looking forward to it.

XteriorCreation · 03-23-2010, 09:47 AM

another great thread. these thread that you contractors/builder start on your projects is a big inspiration and a big help to young builders such as myself. keep up the great work!

kpatrix · 03-23-2010, 09:04 PM

Well, I got out to the job yesterday and drew a full scale mock-up of the radius rafters. The plans gave me the radius, I just needed to define the working points of the fascia and tangent intersection with the main rafters.

I used a little bit of math I learned from Joe Bartok. Much obliged, Joe. I used a 2x12 rafter on a 9/12 pitch intersecting the 16/12 main to carve out the 16' radius, then lofted in the hips.

I left my Arcus blade at home, in another truck I have been trying to get fixed up to use as my tool vehicle. transfer case needs work now... Anyway, I used the same Diablo blade I cut most of the other rafters with to cut these radius rafters. It worked really good, as a matter of fact I used it today to cut more rafters for another radius section....

WarnerConstInc. · 03-23-2010, 09:14 PM

Very nice.

kpatrix · 03-23-2010, 09:32 PM

Had a pretty big pile of scrap left after cutting all those rafters.

There are two masonry fireplaces going up through these sections of roof. That's why there is a big hole in the framing...

kpatrix · 03-23-2010, 09:40 PM

Today, I started on the 16'6" radius.

That front is finished and blocked in, now I have the garages to do tomorrow, which will be a little tricky because the window sills had to be changed to have them 36" AFF for furniture issues.

I'm hoping the decking gets dropped soon, while the weather is good.

knucklehead · 03-23-2010, 09:48 PM

Are they gonna use 3/4 " to sheet that radius?

kpatrix · 03-23-2010, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knucklehead

Are they gonna use 3/4 " to sheet that radius?

The radius rafters are held up a quarter inch so 1/2" can be used there. I have it all blocked now to help with the weight issues.

Wrong picture. I think one of these shows the blocking.

WNYcarpenter · 03-23-2010, 09:54 PM

That's awesome! I like the use of separate radiused tails from the commons! I'll have to think a bit, but I'm pretty sure that would have simplified things for me, or atleast have made adjustments easier....Thanks!

sbebuilders · 03-23-2010, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpatrix

Today, I started on the 16'6" radius.

That front is finished and blocked in, now I have the garages to do tomorrow, which will be a little tricky because the window sills had to be changed to have them 36" AFF for furniture issues.

I'm hoping the decking gets dropped soon, while the weather is good.

Looks great John. I really like the cove molding you added to your full scale drawing. It looks like it's going to take a lot of man hours to install your cove/fascia that high off the ground.

Sim

oldfrt · 03-23-2010, 10:37 PM

Maybe it's been mentioned but or I just can't find it but,
why the short walls in the first floor framing?

jlhaslip · 03-23-2010, 10:52 PM

what happens on the underside of the radiused rafters at the birdsmouth?
is that angle visible from inside?

kpatrix · 03-23-2010, 11:00 PM

Sim,

There will be lots of man hours in the trim details, that may be a whole new thread. The cove/fascia returns into the window trim. We are looking towards coordinating with the brick mason for staging, because of all the overlap in our work. It is really going to get complicated. Right now we are using pump jacks for the wall sheathing and WRB.

Oldfrt,

The short walls are architectural- They allow for clipped ceilings throughout the second floor. When you walk through the upstairs, the low walls make it cozy, while the 9'4" ceiling height adds gives depth. While framing the walls, it seemed odd, but now that the roof is on and we are flattening the ceilings, it really gives the house character. The steep roof helps with this, with three feet of run giving four feet of rise.

Had the walls been any taller, then the flat ceilings would have been out of proportion to the doors and windows. I will try to make a video walk through some time this week.

kpatrix · 03-23-2010, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlhaslip

what happens on the underside of the radiused rafters at the birdsmouth?
is that angle visible from inside?

No, these aren't visible on the inside, the ceiling joists are dropped. The birdsmouths hang below the beam, but above the bottom of the ceiling joists.

At one section, in the center area, I had to make an elongated level cut to avoid having the rafters hang below, with a beveled plate wedged between rafters and joists.

kpatrix · 04-01-2010, 09:41 PM

Been out there busting a$$ trying to get things done, starting to look like a house. Turned in a draw on Monday... Haven't seen the super all week.... Out there this morning and power company showed up, red tagged the power pole, shut us down. Called the office and phones were disconnected. Not looking good....

03-21-2010, 11:42 AM	#103
sbebuilders View Profile sbebuilders Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (120) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Framing Contractor Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 120	Re: Custom In The Woodlands,TX I see the 16/12 roof sheathing as a no-brainer on this 10,000 sqft house. Hire the plywood subcontractor, as long as he has his own insurance, and spend a day cleaning up and fixing any of the roof sheathing that your not happy with. Or use your own crew and listen to them wine and cry all day as their trying to install 75 pound sheets of 3/4" T&G on an 16/12 roof. Then your crew would be bascily worthless for about a week after the roof sheathing was complete. About 6 months ago I asked John if the Arcus blade was worth the cost for cutting 2x radius rafters. John said it was worth the cost. What he should have said You would be a idiot not to use the Arcus blade for cutting 200 radius rafter tails. Well, you would have to be an ** idiot not to hire a subcontractor to roof sheathe a 10,000 sqft house with 340 sheets of 3/4" T&G. Sim note: Richard... shouldn't it be [ I was** usually faster than most decking crews].

03-23-2010, 09:47 AM	#107
XteriorCreation View Profile XteriorCreation New Guy Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (22) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity New Guy Trade: Carpenter- Building and Remolding Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Connecticut Posts: 22	Re: Custom In The Woodlands,TX another great thread. these thread that you contractors/builder start on your projects is a big inspiration and a big help to young builders such as myself. keep up the great work!

03-23-2010, 09:04 PM	#108
kpatrix View Profile kpatrix Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (199) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Framer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 199	Re: Custom In The Woodlands,TX Well, I got out to the job yesterday and drew a full scale mock-up of the radius rafters. The plans gave me the radius, I just needed to define the working points of the fascia and tangent intersection with the main rafters. I used a little bit of math I learned from Joe Bartok. Much obliged, Joe. I used a 2x12 rafter on a 9/12 pitch intersecting the 16/12 main to carve out the 16' radius, then lofted in the hips. I left my Arcus blade at home, in another truck I have been trying to get fixed up to use as my tool vehicle. transfer case needs work now... Anyway, I used the same Diablo blade I cut most of the other rafters with to cut these radius rafters. It worked really good, as a matter of fact I used it today to cut more rafters for another radius section.... Attached Thumbnails

03-23-2010, 09:32 PM	#110
kpatrix View Profile kpatrix Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (199) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Framer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 199	Re: Custom In The Woodlands,TX Had a pretty big pile of scrap left after cutting all those rafters. There are two masonry fireplaces going up through these sections of roof. That's why there is a big hole in the framing... Attached Thumbnails

03-23-2010, 09:40 PM	#111
kpatrix View Profile kpatrix Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (199) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Framer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 199	Re: Custom In The Woodlands,TX Today, I started on the 16'6" radius. That front is finished and blocked in, now I have the garages to do tomorrow, which will be a little tricky because the window sills had to be changed to have them 36" AFF for furniture issues. I'm hoping the decking gets dropped soon, while the weather is good. Attached Thumbnails

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03-23-2010, 09:48 PM	#112
knucklehead View Profile knucklehead Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,931) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Framing,Remodeling,General Contractor Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,931	Re: Custom In The Woodlands,TX Are they gonna use 3/4 " to sheet that radius?

03-23-2010, 09:54 PM	#114
WNYcarpenter View Profile WNYcarpenter wannabe Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,213) Photos (8) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity wannabe Trade: carpentry Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Jamestown NY Posts: 2,213	Re: Custom In The Woodlands,TX That's awesome! I like the use of separate radiused tails from the commons! I'll have to think a bit, but I'm pretty sure that would have simplified things for me, or atleast have made adjustments easier....Thanks! __________________ "I knew I lost my wallet as soon as I threw my pants over the fence". -'lil jarhead bro when asking for a wire transfer...

03-23-2010, 10:37 PM	#116
oldfrt View Profile oldfrt Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,044) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Remodeling Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Northwest Connecticut Posts: 2,044	Re: Custom In The Woodlands,TX Maybe it's been mentioned but or I just can't find it but, why the short walls in the first floor framing? __________________ https://www.facebook.com/pages/John-...94183374011504

03-23-2010, 10:52 PM	#117
jlhaslip View Profile jlhaslip Sure, I can do that... Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (535) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Sure, I can do that... Trade: carpentry/renovations Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Golden, BC, Canada Posts: 535	Re: Custom In The Woodlands,TX what happens on the underside of the radiused rafters at the birdsmouth? is that angle visible from inside?

03-23-2010, 11:00 PM	#118
kpatrix View Profile kpatrix Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (199) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Framer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 199	Re: Custom In The Woodlands,TX Sim, There will be lots of man hours in the trim details, that may be a whole new thread. The cove/fascia returns into the window trim. We are looking towards coordinating with the brick mason for staging, because of all the overlap in our work. It is really going to get complicated. Right now we are using pump jacks for the wall sheathing and WRB. Oldfrt, The short walls are architectural- They allow for clipped ceilings throughout the second floor. When you walk through the upstairs, the low walls make it cozy, while the 9'4" ceiling height adds gives depth. While framing the walls, it seemed odd, but now that the roof is on and we are flattening the ceilings, it really gives the house character. The steep roof helps with this, with three feet of run giving four feet of rise. Had the walls been any taller, then the flat ceilings would have been out of proportion to the doors and windows. I will try to make a video walk through some time this week.

04-01-2010, 09:41 PM	#120
kpatrix View Profile kpatrix Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (199) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Framer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 199	Re: Custom In The Woodlands,TX Been out there busting a$$ trying to get things done, starting to look like a house. Turned in a draw on Monday... Haven't seen the super all week.... Out there this morning and power company showed up, red tagged the power pole, shut us down. Called the office and phones were disconnected. Not looking good.... Attached Thumbnails

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