Crappy Engineer?

Nailerconstruct

I am about to start a remodel on a old two story house. It has some major structure issues. When you walk in the door you can see clear as day the floor drops a good five inches. In the basement there is 3 2x10's sandwiched that span 40 feet with two rotted posts to break up the span. The joists are 2x10's that span 20 feet. To me everything seems fine except the beam. Just by looking I am thinking it needs some steal a couple new steal posts and maybe some new concrete.

The engineer is calling for a new steal beam. But he hasn't provided any notes as to how I should go about jacking things back up. Nothing about building a temp wall to support the load while I remove the beam. Also there is a perpendicular beam up stairs that supports the roof load and he didn't note anything about supporting its load points, which right now land on a single 2x10 joist. The original house had a shake roof which at some point was replaced with fiberglass shingles. That, I assume is whats causing the roof sag as well as some of the issues with the beam down stairs. There is roof bracing that lands on what looks to me like a non load bearing wall. There is no mention of any of this on the plans. I know I can jack up the beam, build a temp wall, add a couple extra 2x10s for the up stairs beam's load points and add roof bracing with out instruction but after reading some posts on this site I am getting the feeling the engineer is half assing things.

Am I expecting too much? Should I suggest a new engineer or a plan revision to my builder? I haven't done a lot of remodel type framing that involved these types of structure issues. I don't think its a big deal but I don't really know what to expect.

Kaiser

Sounds halfassed.

It sounds like you know there is a need for more Engineering.

Get the Engineer to walk the job with you, point out your concerns and by all means cover you butt in your contract.

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neolitic

And do be careful when
you steal the beams and posts.

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OCRS

concretemasonry

Who is paying the engineer and for what?

You obiously have no say except opinions that something should be done, but have no idea of what to do unless you are spoon-fed.

Confront the owner or GC and say they need to pay for more engineering time since you cannot provide the details. The engineer works for the owner, just like you do. Is he a real engineer or just a designer?

An engineer will not spend more time than is required or paid for. He will not sign plans and stake his liability and registration. If you are a framing contractor you cannot make any engineering decisions and have no real liability if you folllow the plans. If there is not enough information on the plans and specs and go go on your own, that is your problem and you could be stuck in the end if it takes more labor to finish and get approval.

A framing contractor has more liability than just a framer paid by the hour. A contractor should have the ability to determine how to do the job.

I suspect the owner or GC is too cheap to pay for information.

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Dick

Engineer, designer and consultant recently active domestically and internationally on construction and design in about 35 countries.

bwalley

The engineer is not responsible for telling you how to shore up the house while you are installing the Steel beam and columns.

He is responsible for sizing it to carry the loads and where it ties in, the columns that support it and making sure there is adequate support under the columns, if the floor needs to be cut and a new footer installed, that needs to be in the plans.

It sounds like you may be in over your head since you said "I haven't done a lot of remodel type framing that involved these types of structure issues. I don't think its a big deal but I don't really know what to expect".

Does your license and insurance cover you for this type of work?

DrewD

bwalley hit the nail on the head. The engineer gives you the component list, not step by step instructions on installation. Although it sounds like you may need more detailed plans for the upper loads, unless you are having a hard time understanding them. I would tell the GC/owner to contact the engineer for a walkthrough to clarify any misunderstandings about specific requests. I know alot of engineers (most are my professors) and they are always happy to clarify any questions. I have worked with guys who dread calling the engineer/GC, act like its an insult to there skill level. We all have questions, especially complicated structure issues. Hoped this helped. Love posting/replying here, so much great knowledge.

Nailerconstruct

I just didn't know what to expect. I didn't know if these things should be noted on the plans or not. Last time I did a addition for this guy. I Had to go back with a palm nailer and put hangars on all the rafters when the inspector didn't pass it. It pissed me off because I called the engineer and asked him if he was sure it didn't need any. He acted like a smart ass and told me not to worry about it.

Personally I don't think anything in this house is a very big deal at all. I have built hundreds of houses as a lead man. I am just starting out as a contractor. Like I said I just didn't know what to expect. I wanted to clarify that before I call and bring up other issues. I will ask about the up stairs load points and that's it. I bet nobody would ever catch it, but it its being exposed anyway might as well fix it.

Thanks for all the info.

Joe Carola

Was it all cathedral ceilings, or did they all have ceiling joists? There are two towns I work in that the inspectors want hurricane ties on every rafter WITH ceiling joists. Naturally all cathedral ceilings have to have it, but these two towns are ridiculous.

Remodeling and new homes are night and day. There will be a lot of tricks/techniques that you will have to learn when framing like what you have describe about installing this piece of steel. Ask a lot of questions about different ways of doing this and be careful. Engineer's and Architect will not tell you how to do this, that's are job as framers. Good luck on this project.

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Joe Carola

Nailerconstruct

It was just a really low pitch. A 2 15/16- 12 pitch. It was a sun room on the back of a house that I tore off and rebuilt as a permanent addition. The home owner wanted french doors and two big windows. So the engineer called for two 11 7/8 lvl beams to span almost the whole length of the back wall. The wall had to be tall enough to accommodate the doors and the ridge couldn't go any higher because of a window above it. The span was sixteen feet. The joists were like a half vault. The ridge side joist height was nine feet and the outside wall was right around 8' 1'' It all boiled down to the inspector felt that the rafters were hanging. So he made me put Joist hangars on them. I have to say I agree with him. It was a pain in the ars because there was very little space to work at that point in time. There was heating and air ducts, electrical and vent pipe for the plumbing. I should have went with my gut feeling and just done it right off the bat. There were no hurricane ties because it was on 16 inch centers.

I am not scarred of the remodel at all. I doubt I will run into any problems but if I do I left my old boss on good terms. He has over thirty years of framing under his belt and has seen just about everything. So I could get the help I need real quick if I do need it. The only thing I am not looking forward to is getting the STEEL into place. That should be a lot of fun. Hernia surgery here I come.

Aframe

I would be careful with what you are expected to to be able to do regarding jacking and installing new beams with as much settling as you mention.

Is the house gutted? If you try to pick up 5" of sag you're going to break something upstairs.

Invite your old boss over for a coffee and consult.

Tom M

Did you give the engineer the spec's for the beam or did he come out to the job? Somethings missing..... It sounds like the collar ties or ceiling ties were not nailed properly in the original construction then someone tried to stop the sagging by throwing props under the ridge and rafters tranfering that load into the middle of the house. So tell him this. If the outside walls are leaning out of level its a good bet that's what's happening. Thats another whole fix by itself. You need to be very careful jacking anything under that kind of pressure. (6 inchs). It can kill you if it kicks out. As for the other hurricane tie comment, joist spacing is not the whole logic behind the madness. Any time a ceiling joist is nailed to the outside wall it provides an uplift resistance, if you move that joist off the wall and make a tray ceiling or cathedral you loose that strength and the metal connectors gives you some back. A large eave can also cause create an uplift load that can exceed normal const. and require you to add the metal ties. Coastal areas & high wind zones will be far more strict.

Nailerconstruct

As far as the roof bracing, in my original post I stated the issues. Lack of bracing along with bracing to non load bearing walls. There is no coller ties at all as well as the original shake roof was replaced with fiberglass shingles without adding any extra bracing.

I already stated its not a cathedral ceiling meaning the only other reason it would require hurricane clips would be if it was on 24 inch centers. I live in Kc mo so wind is usually not a issue. Unless you have a 4 foot soffit or some other unique situation.

In my original post I stated I do not have a lot of experience with this type of remodel. I need to rephrase that. I do not have a lot of experience Contracting this type of remodel. I have lifted up houses on more than one occasion. It would take me all day to type up how I plan to attack this. So here is a brief over view. Five pole jacks, adding posts where needed before lift and during. lots of rack bracing and sway bracing on the walls I don't want to move. add ridge poles to the load bearing wall so hopefully the ridge will go up a little with the beam.

Again thanks for the comments as they are all very helpful.

neolitic

Think hard about the geometry
of your wall bracing.
You can push the walls out when
you raise the floors.

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Nailerconstruct

Thanks dually noted.

Joe Carola

I asked if the last addition was cathedral ceiling, not this job because you said this.

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Joe Carola

Nailerconstruct

I said that because someone else said something else.

this was my response to what you said.

It was just a really low pitch. A 2 15/16- 12 pitch. It was a sun room on the back of a house that I tore off and rebuilt as a permanent addition. The home owner wanted french doors and two big windows. So the engineer called for two 11 7/8 lvl beams to span almost the whole length of the back wall. The wall had to be tall enough to accommodate the doors and the ridge couldn't go any higher because of a window above it. The span was sixteen feet. The joists were like a half vault. The ridge side joist height was nine feet and the outside wall was right around 8' 1'' It all boiled down to the inspector felt that the rafters were hanging. So he made me put Joist hangars on them. I have to say I agree with him. It was a pain in the ars because there was very little space to work at that point in time. There was heating and air ducts, electrical and vent pipe for the plumbing. I should have went with my gut feeling and just done it right off the bat. There were no hurricane ties because it was on 16 inch centers.

Tom M

Thats nice you agreed. I think I am picturing what your saying and if its a half vault then the joists were off the outer wall and face nailed into the sides of the rafter. That would have required hurricane ties period. Maybe the inspector missed it or though it was a small harmless addition but whether or not it was 16 o/c didnt matter.

Nailerconstruct

Nope you still don’t get it.

The joists sit on top of the wall. First went on the rafters because originally there wasn’t supposed to be joists at all. Then for several reasons the decision was made to add joists. So I ran a ledger on the house to match the ceiling height in the kitchen which was nine feet. Then I cut joists to sit on top of the wall which was about 8' 1''. I Then toe nailed two nails into the wall and face nailed three nails into the rafters. No hurricane clips required…

Keep in mind I live in Kansas CityMissouri. I don’t know where you live but I am sure your codes are different as they are a little different everywhere you go.

gallerytungsten

Based on what you mentioned about having to redo some work, here are a few ideas on how to CYA.

Write up exactly how you intend to do the job. Maybe make a few sketches of the details, wherever there's something tricky. Then send this back to the Engineer, along with a statement to the effect that you want him to verify it. Or maybe take it to the town inspector if you think there might be a problem there, and get some input.

Maybe the engineer will be a little more accommodating about reviewing your notes or annotating your drawings if you remind him in some subtle way about how he screwed uyp before.