Balloon Framing House

 
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:55 AM   #1
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Balloon Framing House


I am renovating an old balloon framed house. The homeowner want to rip out the first and second floor joists in the front of house to make a 3 story vaulted entryway. Any suggestions on how I can remove the floor joists but keep the structural support of the balloon frame while given the homeowner the feel of the tall vaulted ceiling. Right now the floor joists are 16 OC and the roof rafters are 24 OC. He wants to remove the floors in the front rooms so it would be back about 8 to 10 feet from the front of house.
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:06 AM   #2
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Re: Balloon Framing House


Yes I do. Contact a structual engineer.

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Old 01-06-2012, 06:49 AM   #3
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Re: Balloon Framing House


This should be good
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Old 01-06-2012, 07:26 AM   #4
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Re: Balloon Framing House


what have you done before in the past?

. . . you have done this before in the past right
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Old 01-06-2012, 08:11 AM   #5
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Re: Balloon Framing House


Here's a good idea of what you could end up with..link
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Old 01-06-2012, 08:21 AM   #6
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Re: Balloon Framing House


Just make sure you have some fresh blades for the sawzall and cut quick.
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Thanks for that tidbit of information Darcy.
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I don't normally talk to people like I talk to you, however you have the little immature schoolgirl mentality so this is new to me.
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Old 01-06-2012, 08:32 AM   #7
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Re: Balloon Framing House


What Warner said and he forgot to mention to keep one foot outside the door at all times
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Old 01-06-2012, 09:32 AM   #8
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Re: Balloon Framing House


I am working with a construction supervisor and 2 other carpenters I was working with in Haiti. It shouldn't matter what happened in my past. I am just looking for honest answers.
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:13 AM   #9
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Re: Balloon Framing House


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I am working with a construction supervisor and 2 other carpenters I was working with in Haiti. It shouldn't matter what happened in my past. I am just looking for honest answers.
That answer is at the top of the page. You need to contact an engineer. Doing what you are talking about on a balloon frame could be disastrous.
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:19 AM   #10
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Re: Balloon Framing House


Your asking for trouble. . . . "Honestly"

I

How is your insurance? Paid up to date? Covered for that kind if work?
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:32 AM   #11
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Re: Balloon Framing House


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Originally Posted by dmhes06 View Post
I am renovating an old balloon framed house. The homeowner want to rip out the first and second floor joists in the front of house to make a 3 story vaulted entryway. Any suggestions on how I can remove the floor joists but keep the structural support of the balloon frame while given the homeowner the feel of the tall vaulted ceiling. Right now the floor joists are 16 OC and the roof rafters are 24 OC. He wants to remove the floors in the front rooms so it would be back about 8 to 10 feet from the front of house.
David, here's the thing: I know you're looking for honest - serious - answers, but if I was in your shoes, I wouldn't be typing questions here, I would've contacted an architect already and a structural engineer (some combination of the two). I'd try and get some plans (drawings) of the present house and plans of what will be the result. Then a game plan to get me from point "A" to "B". It seems crazy that you would be contemplating this project based on some advice on the internet.
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:07 AM   #12
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Re: Balloon Framing House


I would skip calling an architect, they would probably tell you to cut it out.

Old balloon framed houses are little different animal.

Lots of components are let in and notched and that is what holds them together.

The only place there are nails in my old house is one where the rafters hit the top plate.
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Thanks for that tidbit of information Darcy.
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I don't normally talk to people like I talk to you, however you have the little immature schoolgirl mentality so this is new to me.
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:13 AM   #13
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Re: Balloon Framing House


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I would skip calling an architect, they would probably tell you to cut it out.
If that's the case...you contacted the wrong one. Ummm...don't go with the cheapest.

Nothing is impossible. With proper planning, education and a really good sawzall (with a few new blades) you could conquer the world.
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:14 AM   #14
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Re: Balloon Framing House


I've actually had to do this kind of work on a 100-year-old home in Whatcom County. As cool as a balloon framed home is, they are full of many time-consuming and unique challenges.

I'm assuming that the floor joists are installed from wall-to-wall and are recessed into the wall, faced-nailed to the side of the balloon studs. All I can talk about is the structure I renovated and that's the way it was for me. The joists penetrated into the wall cavity and had a “stud” directly underneath each joist providing vertical support.

When a structure is built like this, the joists are holding the walls parallel to each other. If you are considering removing the joists you are going to have to replace that vertical support with angled bracing. As you remove a section of floor joists, you will have to install angle bracing to ensure that the walls remain plumb (or more importantly, remain in the vertical condition that they are currently in). This may mean that the building is not plumb if it is currently not plumb.

I haven't seen your building so what I'm about to write is completely hypothetical. I would imagine that I would disassemble the building from the top down.

I would try and complete the highest section of the building first as a separate module. I don't think I would completely cut the inside of a blue frame structure unless I was able to provide sufficient bracing. So my plan would be to do this thing in sections starting from the top and working my way to the bottom.

Something to consider when remodeling a balloon frame structure is that you will be required to install fire blocking in the wall cavity at every horizontal surface such as a floor or ceiling. So, once you have a floor level de-installed, and you know where the new floor level will be, it's best to install that requirement ahead of the installation of the new surface structure.
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:25 AM   #15
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Re: Balloon Framing House


I don't know if you will be able to have the structure open as your original post stated that the homeowners want. That's the reason why so many people have suggested that whoever is running this remodel needs to contact an architect or at a minimum a structural engineer.

When you remove the horizontal diaphragm from balloon framed walls, unless they are engineered to exist as balloon framed walls without any bracing to keep them straight, and to ensure that they don't oscillate, you will face serious structural issues.

If it was my project, I would ask a structural engineer to do the calculations on having timber strand engineered studs sistered beside each existing balloon frame stud, running from the ground to the plates where the rafters sit. Typically these type of engineered members are either 2 x 6 or 2 x 8 in size. This would result in the loss of a few inches in each room where they were installed because they would stick out from the wall cavity.
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:39 AM   #16
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Re: Balloon Framing House


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what have you done before in the past?

. . . you have done this before in the past right
the first two threads i looked at here had answers like this to questions that do not need to be answered.I had to join. I think I'm gonna like it here lol
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Old 01-08-2012, 08:41 PM   #17
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Re: Balloon Framing House


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the first two threads i looked at here had answers like this to questions that do not need to be answered.I had to join. I think I'm gonna like it here lol
Welcome-
Medford long island??
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:14 PM   #18
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Re: Balloon Framing House


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I don't know if you will be able to have the structure open as your original post stated that the homeowners want. That's the reason why so many people have suggested that whoever is running this remodel needs to contact an architect or at a minimum a structural engineer.

When you remove the horizontal diaphragm from balloon framed walls, unless they are engineered to exist as balloon framed walls without any bracing to keep them straight, and to ensure that they don't oscillate, you will face serious structural issues.

If it was my project, I would ask a structural engineer to do the calculations on having timber strand engineered studs sistered beside each existing balloon frame stud, running from the ground to the plates where the rafters sit. Typically these type of engineered members are either 2 x 6 or 2 x 8 in size. This would result in the loss of a few inches in each room where they were installed because they would stick out from the wall cavity.
Exactly!
Once you pull out those floor joists that are roughly at the mid point of each 18' +/- long 2x4 stud think of that stud going BOING! when a load is applied to it.
Most new construction with 2 story foyers you will see that wall framed in 2x6 even though the rest of the house is framed 2x4. Along with that you have to take into consideration that a new construction home also has continuous structural sheathing that further strengthens those 2x6 walls. In the case of your old ballon frame if you are lucky there may be 1x planks used as a sheathing before the siding was applied or more likely than not, the bevel siding was nailed directly to those balloon studs.
Further you have to consider what effect the loading will have on your remaining 1/2 of the second floor that you kept in place. For the sake of argument take a 24" snow load on the roof. With the floor joist completely intact, you have the strength of the floor joists pulling/pushing against the outside ballon studs. Remove half the joists and now there is nothing there to counteract the loading on wall.
I can't imagine any building dept issueing a permit without a set of stamped drawings for a project of this scope.
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:15 PM   #19
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Re: Balloon Framing House


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Welcome-
Medford long island??
Medford, NJ????
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Old 01-09-2012, 06:29 AM   #20
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Medford, NJ????
I'm confused

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