My First Frameless Cabinets

mattrich · 01-30-2010, 11:27 AM

This is my first crack at building frameless cabinets. I had to build two sets for a couple employee lounges. They were just mirror images of each other. They are nothing spectacular but I gained a lot of experince, being frameless and so much laminate. I have only been doing face frame cabinets and these seemed prone to racking so I used 3/4" backs cut to fits inside the boxs and pocket screwed to stiffen them up a bit. How would you guys build these, with 1/4" backs or what? Do you guys prefer F or FF? Any tips would be much appreciated. Later, Matt

Sorry for the crappy pictures, theres not much room.

**KentWhitten** · 01-30-2010, 11:59 AM

I think that they look great. Nicely done.

I'm curious about the door handles why they are horizontal. I imagine that there are several reasons and not trying to say good or bad. I just imagined that they would be vertical.

genecarp · 01-30-2010, 12:12 PM

Looks like you need no pointers, GMOD

BillD · 01-30-2010, 01:58 PM

Nice looking work Matt. What material did you use for the substrate?

Bill

**Gus Dering** · 01-30-2010, 07:13 PM

Overall good looking job.

Not trying to be picky but you asked and this is what I see;

Any commercial kitchenette we do has have a ADA sink in it. 34" counter and no deck in the cabinet so a wheel chair can roll in there.

Not sure why you ran that false front all the way across. An equal sized false front and top drawer is more standard and utilizes all the space at the drawer pedestal.

A larger filler at the wall line will keep you out of trouble. 1 1/2" is not out of line. There are several ways to do them but build some play into your layout and you will be forever safer.

Your margins from cabinet to cabinet should be the same as dor to door. Leave your doors 1/16" shy of the end of the cabinet when another cabinet is next to it, then you have an 1/8" gap there.

The cabinet over the hood, the doors should be flush to the end of the cabinet and the cabinets next to the hood, the doors should be 1/8" in. Then your door doesn't bind on the hood when they open and you still have 1/8" margin from cab to cab.

Not sure why the upper doors are not flush with the bottom of the cabinet but flush is the standard look.

Pulls on doors are usually running the other way but no biggy there.

You mention using 3/4" backs for strength. I find that 1/4" is just fine. The euro box needs to be made with nice square parts and installed in a way that the building is bracing them in a nice square manner. They just are not a nice tight cube like a framed cabinet. The install is crucial to a nice even margin look.

We can talk more about specific construction methods if you want. Did you take any progress pictures? I'm sure that there is some help we can offer you that could save you some time. Bergstom is the euro king.

world llc · 01-31-2010, 01:09 AM

i love how "i'm not trying to be picky, BUT..." turns into a laundry list!

that is some good info, though... i am playing around at home with euro so when some sucker wants to pay me, i won't screw it up...too bad....

Bergstrom · 01-31-2010, 01:24 AM

King? No...maybe a knight

My first euro job looked a lot worse than that so I am not going to heckle you too much. Do switch to an 11/16" overlay or as the euro world refers to it as a 1/16" reveal

You will go broke using a 3/4" back both by buying the more expensive material and then again from chiropractor bills from lifting those behemoths. Here is a cross section of the "preferred" method.

I run a bead of hot melt around the perimeter (you can use silicone) when I have the box clamped square and finish it off by pocket screwing the hangers into the end panels,tops & bottoms

jlhaslip · 01-31-2010, 01:45 AM

Very nice work. It looks like you are doing a fine job.

I use full 5/8" for backs, full depth rabbets and cut them for a snug fit to square the box. Glued and stapled.
Agree with the comment on adjusting the door gaps to be equal. Looks better to the eye.

What spacings did you use for your hinges?
Which joinery method? Biscuited? or pinned/screwed?

Horizontal looks okay to me. Heck, I installed one set of similar pulls at a 45...

(customer request) ... easy to build a drilling jig.

*edit*

Just noticed the post above mine and offer 2 comments about it.
See my posting about using 5/8" backs. They are manageable for a (somewhat) fit 50+ yr old.
Scribe 1/8 not required. We use a finished end that is cut over size on the depth and scribe that. Cut the finished end to the face of the door and then scribe as required. Whatever you end up with is fine as long as it covers most of the door.
I'll take the strength and the square box over the lightness of construction. I've tried your method and wasn't pleased with it in terms of strength/rigidity of the box.

Bergstrom · 01-31-2010, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlhaslip

Very nice work. It looks like you are doing a fine job.

I use full 5/8" for backs, full depth rabbets and cut them for a snug fit to square the box. Glued and stapled.
Agree with the comment on adjusting the door gaps to be equal. Looks better to the eye.

What spacings did you use for your hinges?
Which joinery method? Biscuited? or pinned/screwed?

Horizontal looks okay to me. Heck, I installed one set of similar pulls at a 45...

(customer request) ... easy to build a drilling jig.

*edit*

Just noticed the post above mine and offer 2 comments about it.
See my posting about using 5/8" backs. They are manageable for a (somewhat) fit 50+ yr old.
Scribe 1/8 not required. We use a finished end that is cut over size on the depth and scribe that. Cut the finished end to the face of the door and then scribe as required. Whatever you end up with is fine as long as it covers most of the door.
I'll take the strength and the square box over the lightness of construction. I've tried your method and wasn't pleased with it in terms of strength/rigidity of the box.

The method that I outlined is AWI certified and extremely strong. I can't see how you would have had problems with it unless you were doing something different. Are you using 5/8" material for the rest of the box as well?

Assuming you have a properly sized and square back,how can the box not be square when it has a fully dadoed back?

Why do you say that scribe isn't required and then go on to outline the procedure for adding it to your cabinet in almost the same fashion?

**Gus Dering** · 01-31-2010, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bergstrom

The method that I outlined is AWI certified and extremely strong. I can't see how you would have had problems with it unless you were doing something different. Are you using 5/8" material for the rest of the box as well?

Assuming you have a properly sized and square back,how can the box not be square when it has a fully dadoed back?

Why do you say that scribe isn't required and then go on to outline the procedure for adding it to your cabinet in almost the same fashion?

I think he is making a case for an applied show end and using it to scribe to the wall.
I like to apply a show end over an unfinished end because we use a blind dado system and I don't want to skin all the finished ends after the fasteners go through the face of an end.
We cut our backs full size and staple them on the back of the cabinet, no rabbet, no dado. If for some reason the material thickness varied to the point the box changed size a CH then we can still square it up and move on without resizing the back. The stapleing is much easier when it's not in a dado too.
I could see using a full dado and a hot glue if we had a case clamp. Not many shops do though.

What am I missing about your method that makes assembly faster and more accurate than slapping a back straight on a box?

**Leo G** · 01-31-2010, 01:51 PM

The door spacing might be a hinge thing. If you use compact hinges you can't butt hinge sides of door up close to get equal spacing. If you use full size or clip on hinges you can. I learned that the hard way. Made a few adjustments in the middle of the job after I received the hinges and said "Oh Crap". Won't be forgetting that lesson any time soon.

tccoggs · 01-31-2010, 02:10 PM

First issue I see here is that we are talking euro cabinets and everyone here is using fractions and inch. Go metric and don't look back. All of the hardware made for uses with this type of cabinet is layed out in MM, so door reveals are 1.5mm, 3mm where cabinets join.

One lesson I think that gets alot of people out of the gate with euro cabinets is that you have to pick up on is that material thickness matters since you are indexing cabinet widths now with an error factor equivlent to 2x the side thickness delta. For example, if I was joining 6 cabinets together, and used 19mm for my material thickness and my plywood actually measured 19.5 you would be 6mm longer than originally designed. Sometimes it may not matter, other times you might be rebuilding a unit to make it work.

We used to use parametric processing for all our cabinets that were cut on the cnc. The operator set the material thickness and rechecked with a caliper from time to time to let the program self adjust. If the material got thicker, it would downsize the horizontal members to compensate.

**Leo G** · 01-31-2010, 02:16 PM

I'm betting the OP doesn't have a CNC and just used a tape measure to build his cabinets. Old school still works.

**Gus Dering** · 01-31-2010, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo G

I'm betting the OP doesn't have a CNC and just used a tape measure to build his cabinets. Old school still works.

No one will argue that old school still works.

But material thickness needs to be allotted for no matter how you process your parts. And it doesn't matter to me if it is metric or imperial, still need to cut accurate sized parts to get your overall size of box to be right.

Bergstrom · 01-31-2010, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Dering

I think he is making a case for an applied show end and using it to scribe to the wall.
I like to apply a show end over an unfinished end because we use a blind dado system and I don't want to skin all the finished ends after the fasteners go through the face of an end.

I realize this is the default method of construction for most software systems however if you look at it long term it has quite a few drawbacks. You are using additional material and spending additional time are two biggies. A dowel joint is a better overall solution IMO (especially for you CNC slingers)

We cut our backs full size and staple them on the back of the cabinet, no rabbet, no dado. If for some reason the material thickness varied to the point the box changed size a CH then we can still square it up and move on without resizing the back. The stapleing is much easier when it's not in a dado too.

What would you staple in the dado?

I could see using a full dado and a hot glue if we had a case clamp. Not many shops do though.

True but if the part machining is accurate enough you can get by w/o one. The back being square is key

What am I missing about your method that makes assembly faster and more accurate than slapping a back straight on a box?

As far as additional speed and accuracy I don't claim either but I do know that if the set up is executed properly it's hard to beat.There are a couple aesthetic issues which of course are subjective but I'll trow them out there anyway.

For us purists the edge of the back showing at the top and bottom would be a good start.Many jobs that I have done require full finished tops and or bottoms and that method simply wouldn't fly. If you are covering up the edge with something we are back to the additional time and material argument.

Do you then have an interior hangrail system? Also a no-no for those of us going after the clean lines of the euro.

What do you think?

Bergstrom · 01-31-2010, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tccoggs

First issue I see here is that we are talking euro cabinets and everyone here is using fractions and inch. Go metric and don't look back. All of the hardware made for uses with this type of cabinet is layed out in MM, so door reveals are 1.5mm, 3mm where cabinets join.

One lesson I think that gets alot of people out of the gate with euro cabinets is that you have to pick up on is that material thickness matters since you are indexing cabinet widths now with an error factor equivlent to 2x the side thickness delta. For example, if I was joining 6 cabinets together, and used 19mm for my material thickness and my plywood actually measured 19.5 you would be 6mm longer than originally designed. Sometimes it may not matter, other times you might be rebuilding a unit to make it work.

We used to use parametric processing for all our cabinets that were cut on the cnc. The operator set the material thickness and rechecked with a caliper from time to time to let the program self adjust. If the material got thicker, it would downsize the horizontal members to compensate.

What is a side thickness delta? It sounds like a measurement to check my wife's body as it shrinks back to it's original size after giving birth

You are dead right about the metric aspect of the whole euro debate but it's one argument I have personally given up on. The Stoicism of the American carpenter is stronger than my will to try to change it.

**Leo G** · 01-31-2010, 04:39 PM

A 19 mm panel times two equals 1.496". I think that is close enough to 1.5" to make it a non issue.

But then you say what happens if the panels are 19.5mm. How is this any different than ordering 3/4" ply and getting 23/32"? You have to know what you have and adjust accordingly.

Lately the plywood I have been getting is all over the place. From .719" to .745", and this comes from the same bunk. Gus needs to buy calibrated panels for his CNC to have consistent results. I just have to use my calipers and adjust where necessary. Part of the job.

**Gus Dering** · 01-31-2010, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bergstrom

What do you think?

The dowel part is where we part ways. I suppose if I really wanted to aggressively pursue commercial case work of even frameless residential work I might have to take a closer look at some type of construction boring system. For now I think keeping the dowel system on the shelf is best for us.

I am intrigued about how you staple the back while its in a full dado. I have tried it and getting shiners on the inside or outside seem to be a hazard. And if you are captivating the back on all four sides, what is the order of assembly to keep from sliding the back in a dado with glue in it and making a mess?

As far as a show bottom or top goes, I can rabbet both of those to cover the back and the outside nailer easy enough. My partner would rather skin the entire bottom and keep it as clean as possible. I hate the whole skinning process. It stinks up the shop and makes such a mess, not to mention the time. But we could band the bottom edge of our unfinished ends with our blind dado system and have a fairly clean look down there. I pick my battles, that one will get a date at some point.

But without the dowel the applied show end seems to be the cleanest way around a host of assembly issues. All cabs have the same unfinished ends and there is no difference from on box to the next except a few will have a panel screwed to the end. I like that better than sanding off the melamine and skinning the ends.

Ya know we never asked if these doors are laid up old school with laminate edges or pvc. If old school were they done without a pinch roller?

**Leo G** · 01-31-2010, 04:44 PM

Don't pick on his doors Gus.

You got me for that.

Bergstrom · 01-31-2010, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Dering

The dowel part is where we part ways. I suppose if I really wanted to aggressively pursue commercial case work of even frameless residential work I might have to take a closer look at some type of construction boring system. For now I think keeping the dowel system on the shelf is best for us.

I am intrigued about how you staple the back while its in a full dado. I have tried it and getting shiners on the inside or outside seem to be a hazard. And if you are captivating the back on all four sides, what is the order of assembly to keep from sliding the back in a dado with glue in it and making a mess?

As far as a show bottom or top goes, I can rabbet both of those to cover the back and the outside nailer easy enough. My partner would rather skin the entire bottom and keep it as clean as possible. I hate the whole skinning process. It stinks up the shop and makes such a mess, not to mention the time. But we could band the bottom edge of our unfinished ends with our blind dado system and have a fairly clean look down there. I pick my battles, that one will get a date at some point.

But without the dowel the applied show end seems to be the cleanest way around a host of assembly issues. All cabs have the same unfinished ends and there is no difference from on box to the next except a few will have a panel screwed to the end. I like that better than sanding off the melamine and skinning the ends.

Ya know we never asked if these doors are laid up old school with laminate edges or pvc. If old school were they done without a pinch roller?

Doesn't your CNC have horizontal boring? If so what additional equipment do you need for construction boring?

I would love to answer you question about the back stapling but I don't understand exactly what you are stapling.....

01-30-2010, 11:27 AM	#1
mattrich View Profile mattrich Registered User Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (17) Photos (45) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Registered User Trade: Trim & Built ins Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Gulfport Ms. Posts: 17	My First Frameless Cabinets This is my first crack at building frameless cabinets. I had to build two sets for a couple employee lounges. They were just mirror images of each other. They are nothing spectacular but I gained a lot of experince, being frameless and so much laminate. I have only been doing face frame cabinets and these seemed prone to racking so I used 3/4" backs cut to fits inside the boxs and pocket screwed to stiffen them up a bit. How would you guys build these, with 1/4" backs or what? Do you guys prefer F or FF? Any tips would be much appreciated. Later, Matt Sorry for the crappy pictures, theres not much room. Attached Thumbnails

01-30-2010, 11:59 AM	#2
KentWhitten View Profile KentWhitten The Duke Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (10,101) Photos (11) Reviews (4) Projects (2) Toolbox (6) View All Activity The Duke Trade: Cabinet Maker Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Portland, Maine Posts: 10,101	Re: My First Frameless Cabinets I think that they look great. Nicely done. I'm curious about the door handles why they are horizontal. I imagine that there are several reasons and not trying to say good or bad. I just imagined that they would be vertical. __________________ If you correct your mind, the rest of your life will fall into place ~Lao Tzu Custom Cabinetry - Portland, Cape Elizabeth, Scarborough, Kennebunkport, Yarmouth, Falmouth, Cumberland, Ogunquit, Maine Salmon Falls Cabinetry

01-30-2010, 12:12 PM	#3
genecarp View Profile genecarp Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (5,426) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: LI,NY designer, new homes, renovation work, concre Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 5,426	Re: My First Frameless Cabinets Looks like you need no pointers, GMOD __________________

01-30-2010, 01:58 PM	#4
BillD View Profile BillD Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (330) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: General contractor Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: West Chester, Pa Posts: 330	Re: My First Frameless Cabinets Nice looking work Matt. What material did you use for the substrate? Bill

01-30-2010, 07:13 PM	#5
Gus Dering View Profile Gus Dering Maker of fine kindling Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (4,755) Photos (18) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Maker of fine kindling Trade: cabinet maker Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Santa Rosa CA Posts: 4,755	Re: My First Frameless Cabinets Overall good looking job. Not trying to be picky but you asked and this is what I see; Any commercial kitchenette we do has have a ADA sink in it. 34" counter and no deck in the cabinet so a wheel chair can roll in there. Not sure why you ran that false front all the way across. An equal sized false front and top drawer is more standard and utilizes all the space at the drawer pedestal. A larger filler at the wall line will keep you out of trouble. 1 1/2" is not out of line. There are several ways to do them but build some play into your layout and you will be forever safer. Your margins from cabinet to cabinet should be the same as dor to door. Leave your doors 1/16" shy of the end of the cabinet when another cabinet is next to it, then you have an 1/8" gap there. The cabinet over the hood, the doors should be flush to the end of the cabinet and the cabinets next to the hood, the doors should be 1/8" in. Then your door doesn't bind on the hood when they open and you still have 1/8" margin from cab to cab. Not sure why the upper doors are not flush with the bottom of the cabinet but flush is the standard look. Pulls on doors are usually running the other way but no biggy there. You mention using 3/4" backs for strength. I find that 1/4" is just fine. The euro box needs to be made with nice square parts and installed in a way that the building is bracing them in a nice square manner. They just are not a nice tight cube like a framed cabinet. The install is crucial to a nice even margin look. We can talk more about specific construction methods if you want. Did you take any progress pictures? I'm sure that there is some help we can offer you that could save you some time. Bergstom is the euro king. __________________ Every parent who has walked barefoot into their child's room late at night hates Legos

How to effectively use customer testimonials - even if you onl...

Green Framing Presentation - Updated

Greenlee Glo-Stix...

DeWalt Self-Level...

My First Frameless Cabinets

My First Frameless Cabinets

Re: My First Frameless Cabinets

Re: My First Frameless Cabinets

Re: My First Frameless Cabinets

Re: My First Frameless Cabinets

Re: My First Frameless Cabinets

Re: My First Frameless Cabinets

Re: My First Frameless Cabinets

Re: My First Frameless Cabinets

Re: My First Frameless Cabinets

Re: My First Frameless Cabinets

Re: My First Frameless Cabinets

Re: My First Frameless Cabinets

Re: My First Frameless Cabinets

Re: My First Frameless Cabinets

Re: My First Frameless Cabinets

Re: My First Frameless Cabinets

Re: My First Frameless Cabinets

Re: My First Frameless Cabinets

Re: My First Frameless Cabinets

Join Now... It's Fast and FREE!

Already Have an Account?

01-31-2010, 01:09 AM	#6
world llc View Profile world llc President of the world Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,468) Photos (18) Reviews (14) Projects (0) Toolbox (20) View All Activity President of the world Trade: general contractor Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: chatham, nj Posts: 1,468	Re: My First Frameless Cabinets i love how "i'm not trying to be picky, BUT..." turns into a laundry list! that is some good info, though... i am playing around at home with euro so when some sucker wants to pay me, i won't screw it up...too bad.... __________________ www.worldllc.net www.facebook.com/WorldLLC

01-31-2010, 01:24 AM	#7
Bergstrom View Profile Bergstrom Still have all my fingers Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (720) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Still have all my fingers Trade: Cabinet Maker Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Maple Lake MN Posts: 720	Re: My First Frameless Cabinets King? No...maybe a knight My first euro job looked a lot worse than that so I am not going to heckle you too much. Do switch to an 11/16" overlay or as the euro world refers to it as a 1/16" reveal You will go broke using a 3/4" back both by buying the more expensive material and then again from chiropractor bills from lifting those behemoths. Here is a cross section of the "preferred" method. I run a bead of hot melt around the perimeter (you can use silicone) when I have the box clamped square and finish it off by pocket screwing the hangers into the end panels,tops & bottoms __________________ Killing the Earth, one raised panel at a time....... http://bergstromcabinets.com http://minneapoliscabinets.biz http://maplegrovecabinets.com

01-31-2010, 01:45 AM	#8
jlhaslip View Profile jlhaslip Sure, I can do that... Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (535) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Sure, I can do that... Trade: carpentry/renovations Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Golden, BC, Canada Posts: 535	Re: My First Frameless Cabinets Very nice work. It looks like you are doing a fine job. I use full 5/8" for backs, full depth rabbets and cut them for a snug fit to square the box. Glued and stapled. Agree with the comment on adjusting the door gaps to be equal. Looks better to the eye. What spacings did you use for your hinges? Which joinery method? Biscuited? or pinned/screwed? Horizontal looks okay to me. Heck, I installed one set of similar pulls at a 45... (customer request) ... easy to build a drilling jig. edit Just noticed the post above mine and offer 2 comments about it. See my posting about using 5/8" backs. They are manageable for a (somewhat) fit 50+ yr old. Scribe 1/8 not required. We use a finished end that is cut over size on the depth and scribe that. Cut the finished end to the face of the door and then scribe as required. Whatever you end up with is fine as long as it covers most of the door. I'll take the strength and the square box over the lightness of construction. I've tried your method and wasn't pleased with it in terms of strength/rigidity of the box. Last edited by jlhaslip; 01-31-2010 at 01:55 AM.

01-31-2010, 02:10 PM	#12
tccoggs View Profile tccoggs Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (218) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Carpentry Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 218	Re: My First Frameless Cabinets First issue I see here is that we are talking euro cabinets and everyone here is using fractions and inch. Go metric and don't look back. All of the hardware made for uses with this type of cabinet is layed out in MM, so door reveals are 1.5mm, 3mm where cabinets join. One lesson I think that gets alot of people out of the gate with euro cabinets is that you have to pick up on is that material thickness matters since you are indexing cabinet widths now with an error factor equivlent to 2x the side thickness delta. For example, if I was joining 6 cabinets together, and used 19mm for my material thickness and my plywood actually measured 19.5 you would be 6mm longer than originally designed. Sometimes it may not matter, other times you might be rebuilding a unit to make it work. We used to use parametric processing for all our cabinets that were cut on the cnc. The operator set the material thickness and rechecked with a caliper from time to time to let the program self adjust. If the material got thicker, it would downsize the horizontal members to compensate.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes	Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode	Rate This Thread:

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
stain over varnished oak cabinets	shovel	Painting & Finish Work Picture Post	7	06-20-2011 12:25 AM
Removing tile that is set under base cabinets..	bujaly	Flooring	43	03-13-2010 05:15 PM
Painting/staining cabinets	KG007	Kitchens & Baths	7	01-09-2010 11:41 AM
Building cabinets	PA woodbutcher	Finish Carpentry	46	03-27-2009 12:29 PM
Popularity of frameless vrs. face frame kitchen cabinets.	Bill482	General Discussion	10	09-12-2007 07:55 PM