Loyality ,what Should I Do

mmike032

i have been working for someone for 7 yrs now and I totally respect him. H e has taught me everthing about finish work. He is also the most well known trim man in our area ( albany ga) there fore he has tons of work and turns down work also giving some to me to do on the side.However I am at the age that I need to start trying to this on my own and make better money.Currently I work for 2 builders who dont build alot of houses. I do the work on nights and weekends whenever a house comes up. My boss even helps me on some of the houses if I need him.He just works for the same hourly rate as I do,(pretty cool I think) Anyway heres the question last week we were on vacation and 1 of his builders call me to do a little job for him since my boss didnt want to fool with it. So i did it . The builder then proceds to tell me I need to go on my own, and he promises all his work. Kind of bad mouthing my boss b/c he doesnt fool with small jobs.however my boss doesnt really like him either b/c of all the bull**** call backs etc.. etc... How would you all handle this , tell you r boss what was offered and that you were thinking about it.(Reason being this would give 3 builders and probally keep me busy) Or would you continue working for him knowing that 1 day he will more than likely give the business to you.He has told me many times that retirement is not far away.

dougchips

Talk to your boss about your need for money. Taking one of his clients is evil, the client belongs to him even if he does not meet all of the client's needs. Sort of like taking a man's wife because he does not mow the yard.

Greed is also evil.

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Tom R

The grass always seems greener on the other side.

Sounds like your boss is a great guy.

There's nothing 'dis-loyal' about going out on your own, - - just make sure you're aware of the added mental stress and time involved.

The guy offerin' you work don't give a damn about you, - - he's out for himself, - - but then, - - you'll most likely find that out the hard way much sooner than later.

There's no law against telling you're boss you're 'itching' to make more money.

Just make sure if you do leave, - - it's on good terms.

firemike

If you respect him at all, talk to him, and now might be the time if he is considering retirement anyway. If he doesn't really like the builder anyway, he might give him to you with no problem.

You might be in the "right place at the right time" - He might be open to the idea of you taking over some of his work so he can start scaling back towards retirement.

As a builder, I would have a lot more respect for you if you kept everything above board rather than trying to slip in under the radar and steal his work, it might cause some bad feelings and serious trust problems down the road, along with credibility problems in the trade. If he is that well respected around Albany, I believe he can be an asset to you if your honest with him, and a real detriment if your not.

If your boss doesn't want those small PITA jobs, I am sure he will have no problem if you did them. At least you can get your feet wet and find out if you really want to work for that builder. The reason he may not take the small jobs from him is beacause of the callbacks and BS, just might not worth it.

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-Mike-

mmike032

I agree with all of you .I was never going to go behind his back and take it by all means, he has been way to good to me over the years.I was thinking about telling him what the builder said b/c that would probally be the icing on the cake for him.Its not like this builder is going to make or break him.As 1 of you stated Im just not sure I would also want to deal with the b/s of the builder even if I did make more money. I think in the long run it would be better to stick with him although i feel i need a piece of the pie. right now I m at the top of the totem pole around here as far as employees go (20 hr) its just making 1200 for about a day and half of work sounds so much better.Maybe im getting to greedy since ive seen what can be made on your on.All in all would you stay and wait it out for gaurenteed clientel or go now and hope for the best

dougchips

How about offering to take control of the company over a period of time? Does he trust you to look at new jobs and create proposals and contracts? Maybe over a period of time (planned) he could teach you all of the operational stuff and when the time is right you could take the reins.

Another option is keeping him in the background (semi-retired) so he can coach you when needed or help out on a hard job. You could kick him back 5-10% as a paid retirement?

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Tom R

mmike032

by proposals do you mean bids or what .anyway no he doesnt let me in on much if the business end. I have asked him about his prices etc.. and he told me although they sound very cheap compared to what you all get .I was thinking about asking him if i could buy the business 1 day. im also sure he would have no problem helping me on harder jobs since hes done it for other ex employees

mmike032

every other employee he trained and got good went on their own also, just that 4 out of 5 have crapped out and back working for someone.He has took a likeing to me over the years b/c i am very hard worker and very dependable. I just happen to be in the right place at the right time.on the business end it kind of seems like he thinks i need to figure it out for myself maybe thats how he started what about you all , were you trained or just jump right in

dougchips

If he has not shared the business end with you it is for some very good reasons. You can teach someone to be a ace ______(insert trade) but without the business knowledge they will FAIL on their own. Why train your potential competition?

__________________
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POOLMANinCT

tell your boss what's up w/ your needs & builder soliciting you....

as far as him "giving" the biz away when he retires, don't hold your breathe. you may be viewed as a 401k....
been there done told him go F...... now things went well.

ray

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......Less with the jaw & More with the paw.....

WNYcarpenter

Like you I don't want to make someone else money for the rest of my life. I'm itching to go on my own and I see the rewards, but after reading so many threads about starting out and after some research and eye opening replies, it's not all it's cracked up to be.

First and foremost you have to be 100% certain you're ready. For ****s and giggles check out a book on writing a business plan. That will put a whole new perspective out there and force you to look at yourself realistically. It sounds like you work for a good person so take some time and come up with a real plan before you take the plunge. I've got it relatively good where I'm at so I'm trying to piece things together that will work good for me before I take on a financial responsibility I may or may not be ready for. This forum has opened my mind and my eyes.

I'm speaking for/to myself here, now you know what you want for your future. Take every situation you encounter during the day and try to look at it from a business owners perspective. You're boss has taught you the trade while paying you, he can also teach you the business. Start a logbook...how many linear feet did it take, how long, delays, etc...anything you think might help.

I may be wrong, but no one is gonna train you to be in business, they train you how to be the employee that best suits them. Throw a dog a bone and they'll do whatever you ask. You/me we're gonna be jumping in, so preperation is key.

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mmike032

Im not holding my breath waiting for the business b/c i know there is a possibilty it might not happen, thats whats got me itching to go.I am also well aware of all the headaches and woorying whan on your own since i deal with that now with the builders i have.(They want you to drive across town to put on a door knob etcc......,RIGHT THEN NOT LATER)I also already look at situations through a bosses eyes day in and day out preparing myself.Here everything is priced by sq ft for doors and base everything else extra. If someone tried to charge x amount a ft for crown and base they would starve here.Im thinking about starting to charge 7 $ each corner for crown instead of 25$ a run .wonder if ill get any business that way probally not.South GA sucks.

mmike032

1 more thing why would he retire when he doesnt have to work now. He can drop the trailer at a job and we get it done.2 houses a day alot of times.To much $ to be giving away in my opioin.Although he tells me he doesnt care about doing it anymore, he just wants to go fishing.

firemike

You right Mike, too much $$$$$ to "give" away. If he can drop the trailer off on his way to the fishing hole, and you two complete the work, and he gets the check, who would want to give that up.


I know just how you feel. Many, many years ago, back in my late teens/early 20's I was working for an electrician, just him, me, and a laborer. We met at the jobsite in the morning, we'd get going, and he'd leave the rest of the day. We busted our a$$ getting the work done, made him a lot of money. Sometimes he'd show up later in the day, sometimes not. Never really thought about it, just figured he was doing other work or service calls. Found out he golfed 5 days a week. v

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-Mike-

Glasshousebltr

WNYcarp, I was thinking back over some of your earlier posts and you ain't *****ting, this forum has turned your mind quick .......bravo on the input here! ........However .....It was a little unexpected.....more power to ya.

mmike all the fellas are putting out sound advice here, but I have a point to make. If you needed to ask about the loyalty to your boss, then it must have bothered ya to work for the GC chump (that's the light version of what I call a help thief). So to me it sounds like your heads in the right direction, however does this mean your ready to step out? .....I'd examine that carefully ....no or little biz knowledge will burn you up fast.

I'd maintain the job and use the light work to build your biz knowledge. WNYcarp has a freakin great idea with the pricing log.

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Bob

mahlere

couple of quick points:

unless you have 2 superstars working...you ain't making enough money off of 2 guys to live high on the hog...he might have been golfing, but he wasn't raking in the money

there are a lot of people on this board who would have a lot more money in their pocket (and more time to enjoy it) if they were "making someone else money" instead of trying to be their own boss. They would be more productive and doing what they love...they would make more overall money, hence more money from them..without all the associated headaches.

i truly applaud anyone and everyone who has the guts to go out on their own. Your current boss is typical...the reason that 4 of 5 guys who were "good" and went out on their own failed, is simple. Your boss doesn't really understand the business side, and he sure didn't teach them (or you)....they didn't have a shot. Learn the business side (night school, online, library, wherever) and then go out on your own.

RISENRUN

What is there to give in his business..??? He is a trim carpenter..?? So he has tools..?? If you stick with the guy and when he decides to retire you pick up all his clients. Make your own business and then you become the TEACHER.. On the side pick up his slack. If you ask him I would bet you he would throw you a bone and let you moonlite the jobs he thinks are to small??

john5mt

Do you think that GC weasel really cares if you get out on your own. The only reason he wants you out on your own is so he can get you to hop to his tune at a lower price. The beauty of finish carpentry is that if youre good you can line up your GC's to hop to your tune because of the product you put out. I imagine your boss knows this and that's why he doesnt screw with that small timer's crap.

I agree with Riserun, there isnt much to a finish carpenters business but tools to buy. Your work will or will not carry you, you cant continue to ride on your boss's reputation if you buy his company. If there aint enough going on in your community to keep you busy you may want to stay with him or widen your horizons a little. And btw doing finish work by the sq foot is freaking nuts. Ive got some jobs for you if you would like to do work by the square foot. Figure out your time and charge by the corner. Thats the material you work with, so thats what you should charge by.

mmike032

By giving his business I mean his clientel I already have the tools and trailor etc....I totally agree about the s/q ft but around here this is what everybody does. if I was to charge by the l/ft I could get rich, that is if any GCs would pay it which they wont.I might could get away with 6 or 7 $a corner on crown but base no way in hell, not here. On average we do 1 1/2 houses a day (around 2000 sg ft) .I figure my boss makes about 1800-2200$ off each house minus payroll,taxes,workers comp.If he charged by l/ft that would double easily and he would have retired long ago.Although i have fiqured up the time it takes me on my jobs charging by sq/ft and usually end up around 100$ an hr, minus the self employed tax which is 33% here(which in my opioion is crap)