High-end Custom Cabinets

Cache

Question for all you high-end custom cabinet guys out there. I'm getting conflicting information from various sources on painted cabinets.

Wife really likes the look of dark HW floors with white/light painted cabinets. Some other things she has specified are:

1. Flush mount doors and drawers.
2. Concealed hinges.
3. Full height (8'4" after leaving 8" for crown) stacked upper cabinets.
4. Soft-close drawers.
5. Furniture style.

I'm proficient enough to paint/install these myself. My question comes in the materials. One article in Fine Woodworking suggests that soft maple is the only way to go for doors and frames on nice paint-grade cabinets. Another in the same publication says that the author switches to MDF whenever possible because it is much more stable.

Cost is not an issue. I have no problem avoiding PB all together and using 3/4" ply for all boxes. The difference in cost between MDF and maple for the doors and drawers is minor. I just want to go with the one that is best suited for the purpose. Any advice?

Cdat

I too use 3/4 ply instead of MDF. You do realize though that this will add quite a bit of weight? Not that, that should matter except for you moving them around by yourself. Soft maple is nice. Paint? Why not go for a pickled stain? I just did a job with a light 'pickled' color that I found replusive until I was done with the job and it actually turned out quite nice. That was on oak. I put down a dark countertop with a beveled front edge in black walnut.

After all that work, the HO decided to do the backsplash himself with tile and he totally dicked up the job.

angus242

My high-end supplier will paint 13 different colors on oak, maple, hickory or cherry wood. In addition, you can have wear, distress or sand-through as special finish techniques with or without a glazed finish.

seabolt

Soft maple works great for paint-grade doors/drawers. A loft of people use poplar, but it is softer so it dents easier. I know of one shop that uses beech for all of their paint grade work.

MDF is nice and stable and takes paint well (except for the edges until they've been filled and sanded - drywall mud works great for that), but like Cdat said, it is heavy. Also, it generally doesn't hold fasteners as well so there can be issues with hinge screws pulling out if they get used a lot or used hard.

BKFranks

For the drawers you either want Blum - Bluemotion or the Accuride-Eclipse.
You can get the Bluemotion for the doors as well. You can basically slam the door or drawer, but about 2 inches before it closes it will slow down and close slowly and quietly. There's a little shock absorber built into it.

http://www.blum.com
http://www.accuride.com

For the cases you could use MDF, it accepts paint very well, but if you want something that will last a long time I wouldn't use it. I would use a one sided-prefinished birch. The inside could be birch all prefinished with a clear finish and the outside would be a nice smooth ply that could be painted whatever color. I don't know why you'd use maple. Birch and Maple ply is almost identical and the price difference is huge. 1 sheet of prefinished one-sided birch costs me about $30. A decent sheet of maple might cost between $60-$80 depending on the plywood core. If you're looking for a wood to use for a face frame, use poplar if you're going to paint it.


Here's a place that's in my area. The website has some information about plywood and stuff. http://www.andersonplywood.com/plywood.htm


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Cache

Every time we looked at a light stain of any kind, my wife thought it looked too pink with the wood grain behind it. Better to go with an opaque finish in that case. That's fine for me. It would be very hard for me to find a dark cabinet stain that I like against the very dark floors. Off-white cabinets play off the floors nicely. We picked up several dream kitchen books/mags last week and almost every high end traditional/european kitchen had light painted cabinets. Haven't decided yet whether I'll glaze them.

Cache

Yeah, I'd worried about the fasteners the most. Since the doors will be flush mounted, any slight malfunction of the hardware is going to cause problems.

Cache

Thanks for the links. Wasn't aware that Blumotion was available for doors. I wasn't suggesting that I would use maple ply. I was suggesting maple doors/drawer panels and face frames. The stability of MDF would be great, but I'm afraid to do flush mount doors with it because I'm not sure it will hold the hardware as well over time.

angus242

I just installed my first set of Blumotion for doors and I have to say they're slick as hell! I thought they were kinda gimmicky when I first heard of them but now after a day of working in that kitchen, closing those doors and then coming home to my house with regular doors, I'll never go back. I am now making them standard on every kitchen I do.

ockitchensolver

To get the best finish the article you read is correct. High-end cabinet shops buy in the doors factory finished. The Stiles and rails of the doors are Maple, and the door core or center panel is MDF.
The MDF core is used because it avoids the spider web cracking that occurs with the natural expanding and contracting of wood in responce to its environment, that you typically see over time in the corners of all wood panels. The application of the paint and process is more controllable, and predictable as well with a MDF core, so it is not an economy issue.
The doors are spray painted, and baked, similar too how an automobile is painted. Five painting stages, and Two final finish stages is typical for a really good finish, some companies out there go to a nine stage.
The actual paint process used is called Solid Tone, so to research companies that do this type of product and sell to the trade, do a google search for cabinet doors solid tone painting.
A consideration, because of the process involved in getting the finish, in the field if you chip or nick the paint, you will never really achieve the factory finish when you repair it.
But the upside is the paint does not deteriote and yellow,or fade over time as would regular painted wood, but it is "pricey".

skymaster

Single sided prefinished Maple ply. Prefin goes inside, stain outside, soft maple for doors and I buy my doors as most do. I can buy as good as I can make, cheaper than I can buy my rough material. Decorative Specialties

Jeremy E

There's a good book in Taunton's "For Pros By Pros" series on kitchen cabs. Tha author describes a pretty slick method for inset doors and drawers that involves 2 face frames. The first sub frame gets doors and drawers mounted as overlays before the final face frame is fit around them after they're adjusted all pretty and nice. Seems like it might take some of the fussiness out of the whole inset door/drawer process. I have used it yet, but I wish I had on my last job...

Good Luck. Sounds like a fun a job.

troubleseeker

It would be maple over mdf hands down IMO. I don't mind mdf for raised panels, but don't like it for frames because the edges are too fragile. Everyone tends to make such a big deal over the material for the boxes, but let's face it, once installed, it really makes no difference. Plywood on expoeed ends is nicer IMO because it can be stained to match the face frame/door color, and be a better match than particle board with a foil overlay. If you are set up to handle the heavy particle board, I'd use it for interior box sides, definately plywood shelves, and spend the few saved dollars for some quality six way adjustable hinges, a real treat for inlaid doors.

Trimcat

MDF face frames and door frames to me equals junk. It might take paint good but if it flakes off the first time you bump it with a pan what good is it. The only place I might consider it would be in a door panel, but even that would be iffy for me. In a raised panel, you still have an edge there that's waiting to get trashed by an accidental bump or scrape with something. A good tight grained hardwood like beech, maple (hard of soft), birch, or even poplar would be what I would go for in your situation. I'm sure there are many others too. Look for one that's cheap in your area. Honestly, I would prefer a good clear grained pine over MDF.

I like the idea of the prefinished birch plywood for the boxes. Finishing the insides of cabinets is not fun. This stuff has a great, factory applied finish. It looks professional, and it saves a ton of time in the long run.

Troubleseeker gives the best advice when it comes to the hinges however. Spend the money there. You won't regret it when it comes time to adjust your doors.

Cache

Thanks for the responses.

So, I've spoken with several custom cabinet shops around here, and the preferred box material is melamine. I say preferred, but what I really mean is exclusive. Every one of them uses melamine for the carcasses. 1/4" veneer for end panels. Maple for the face frames and door panels. Dovetailed ply for the drawer boxes.

When asked why they use melamine for the carcasses, the response was always that it cleans easier. Should I use melamine for that reason?

seabolt

It really just comes down to what you want, but the melamine does clean up really easy. Also, you don't have to finish it. Generally, the only time you'll have a problem with melamine is in the sink cabinet b/c you're more prone to water problems there. Use a good kitchen/bath silicone caulk on the deck-to-side and deck-to-back joints and it can prevent swelling if you catch the drip pretty fast.

Melamine is made for this purpose, and it does the job just fine. I don't care to work with it much myself but I really like not having to finish it. I wish I could get the prefinished birch in my area for $30 a sheet. The only supplier I've found in Dallas quoted me something like $70 a sheet - but that was about two years ago. Maybe I need to call around.

woodtradesman

cache, in all fairness melamine is a stable and acceptable material that will probably hold up for a good amount of time but likely will not out live your house or you for that matter, being that as it may i don't care to use it in any of my projects.

Cabinet shops will never tell you why they don't prefer other materials, the real reason particle board melamine is almost exclusively used by most shops is because it is the cheapest finished surface material you can get and as bonus it is relatively easy to machine.

BK, I love to here where you can get pre-finished birch ply for $30 a sheet, My supplier can get me 13 hard wood layer latvian pre finished birch ply for some thing like $95 a sheet, prefinihed apple ply for about $110 a sheet and generic pre finished maple for about $75 a sheet.

Cache

So I guess the next question is in regards to the preferred method of finishing the inside of the boxes if ply is used instead of melamine. Do you generally finish the ply prior to assembly, or after assembly. I have a fair amount of painting experience and 24" deep boxes are hard to spray well.