Ceiling Math Mess

 
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:13 AM   #21
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Re: Ceiling Math Mess


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Maybe I'm missing the obvious here, but why are you locked into those numbers?

My mind says skin the ceiling with a couple layers of 5/8" CDX plywood, glued and screwed, giving yourself a base to set your "beams" anywhere you desire.

I wouldn't do much more than a 2x screwed to the base and hang the Poplar box from it after the beadboard is installed. You could pocket screw a block here and there to keep the box squared up and true.

If you're depending on the framing of the beams to stiffen the floor, they still will if you tuck them tight to the CDX.
The original ceiling joists are there and he is going to wrap them. If you rock it you will lose ceiling height.
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:46 AM   #22
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Re: Ceiling Math Mess


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Love it....the idea of presenting the bead to both planes is what I was trying to achieve.

But..........

How do i get the bead in that orientation?

How do i shoot it in the face? Would go great in the groove on the face/side, but I would worry about the bead coming off. 40 deg. shot from above the bead?
It's just a pass of the beading bit along each of the two faces after the corner is glued up. If you build your beams in place, you need to be sure you have enough room for half the router base from the bottom of the beam to the ceiling. Also doing it in place means the bead has to stop when the router base hits the beam running along the wall.


Prepare your corner joint based upon the size of your beading bit and the joint disappears.

This vertical bead was from a 3/4" beading bit. If you want to match your ceiling bead you get that size bit.

Ceiling Math Mess-101_4310.jpg
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:44 AM   #23
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Re: Ceiling Math Mess


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Originally Posted by loneframer View Post
Maybe I'm missing the obvious here, but why are you locked into those numbers?

My mind says skin the ceiling with a couple layers of 5/8" CDX plywood, glued and screwed, giving yourself a base to set your "beams" anywhere you desire.

I wouldn't do much more than a 2x screwed to the base and hang the Poplar box from it after the beadboard is installed. You could pocket screw a block here and there to keep the box squared up and true.

If you're depending on the framing of the beams to stiffen the floor, they still will if you tuck them tight to the CDX.



I wish.....ceiling height is like 7' 6" as it is.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:48 AM   #24
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Re: Ceiling Math Mess


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It's just a pass of the beading bit along each of the two faces after the corner is glued up. If you build your beams in place, you need to be sure you have enough room for half the router base from the bottom of the beam to the ceiling. Also doing it in place means the bead has to stop when the router base hits the beam running along the wall.


Prepare your corner joint based upon the size of your beading bit and the joint disappears.

This vertical bead was from a 3/4" beading bit. If you want to match your ceiling bead you get that size bit.

Attachment 87999

Ahhh....sweet. In this application I think routing after install would involve too many headaches. With the perimeter "soffit" involved I would be forced to create a very refined stopping point at the inside corners, or have to rout, slice, and miter every single joint.

Thanks for the tip though. I really like that corner, never done one before.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:56 AM   #25
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Re: Ceiling Math Mess


Just went over it with the clients.

We have decided to set the beam width at 8" (ish...based on the math) and leave the bays at the size they are now (with as much tweaking as poss. to minimize differential.

They want me to mock up the different bead/V-notch options.

IMO, with the beadpanel and the single bead slab doors on the cabs....I would continue with that detail.

Thanks for all the help.

I think I need to step into the present and get this SketchUp thing you all speak of.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:57 AM   #26
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Re: Ceiling Math Mess


Almost everybody likes that corner. It is 18th century stuff.
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:01 PM   #27
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Re: Ceiling Math Mess


So I did run this on SketchUp(it's raining today) and found that the 6th bay in is going to be much larger no matter what but you can make all the other bays consistent using an 11.75" beam and a 17.75" bay(assuming you use 1/2" lumber to wrap. If the large bay was in the center it would look great but being #6 it sucks unless that's where a fixture goes.

I really don't like the idea of very odd size joist bays which is what you would have using a much smaller beam. I understand it would drop the head height but consider putting beadboard to the bottom of the beams and just using a 1x "coffer" layout. You still get a nice depth to the ceiling but the bays would be exact. Depending on the depth of the ceilings this could work and give you room for recessed lighting. Old houses have low ceilings.

What's the height from floor to lowest beam?
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:02 PM   #28
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Re: Ceiling Math Mess


That profile is usually made with two passes of a beading bit.
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:30 PM   #29
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Re: Ceiling Math Mess


Just get the trim
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Old 02-27-2013, 06:31 PM   #30
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Re: Ceiling Math Mess


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Almost everybody likes that corner. It is 18th century stuff.

Classical stuff is almost always golden.
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Old 02-27-2013, 06:40 PM   #31
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Re: Ceiling Math Mess


I used it in the window seat I made for a guy I've done some work for before. He saw the corner and was psyched. He loved the fact that it wasn't square and his kids wouldn't destroy it.
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:37 PM   #32
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Re: Ceiling Math Mess


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So I did run this on SketchUp(it's raining today) and found that the 6th bay in is going to be much larger no matter what but you can make all the other bays consistent using an 11.75" beam and a 17.75" bay(assuming you use 1/2" lumber to wrap. If the large bay was in the center it would look great but being #6 it sucks unless that's where a fixture goes.

I really don't like the idea of very odd size joist bays which is what you would have using a much smaller beam. I understand it would drop the head height but consider putting beadboard to the bottom of the beams and just using a 1x "coffer" layout. You still get a nice depth to the ceiling but the bays would be exact. Depending on the depth of the ceilings this could work and give you room for recessed lighting. Old houses have low ceilings.

What's the height from floor to lowest beam?

Ethan...you da man.

The sixth bay is cool by me... cause it is over the sink/peninsula and we are choosing a light fixture to play along with the extra width.

Knowing the actual limitations (11.75 & 17.75) is a huge help. I just didn't have the time today. I like making decisions based on absolutes....thanks to you....and fortuitous precipitation, I can.

The idea of odd bays bugs the hell out of me, especially with the low ceiling height. One of you guys walks in that kitchen, you will notice the "fade"/alignment is out of whack as you travel perpendicular to the beams. Will anyone else notice? Compromises suck... sometimes.

Also not thrilled with 11.75 & 17.75. Real bad proportion. Beams way too "heavy" .... look and "feel".

No offense. But I'd rather lick a cheesegrater than chuck up a 1" deep faux coffer. IMO....it's like saying, "just get those other green tools (Ryobi), they have a Festool-like appearance." Never !!!! (unless they insist and compensate with extra $ for the shame)

Finished floor to beam is 7' 6"......already "feels" cave-like. That was my whole reason for designing this ceiling. Give the room a little "lift" visually with the deep white coffers.

In the end, the bay consistency is the thing I am willing to compromise on. I think it has the least negative impact.

Can't thank you enough for taking the time to give me a hand on this. Cheers.
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:33 PM   #33
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Re: Ceiling Math Mess


One more bit of bad news. Due to the beams being out of parallel you will need at least a 9.75" beam to even out the fourth beam/joist out from the left wall on the drawing. I'm happy to send you the Sketchup file with the mockup to play with. It's very basic, I just put your measurements to scale and added a panel layer.
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:57 PM   #34
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Re: Ceiling Math Mess


Form follows function. You can only do what the framing allows you. Great thread. Good help. What this site is all about. I unfortunately didn't add a thing.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:09 PM   #35
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Re: Ceiling Math Mess


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One more bit of bad news. Due to the beams being out of parallel you will need at least a 9.75" beam to even out the fourth beam/joist out from the left wall on the drawing. I'm happy to send you the Sketchup file with the mockup to play with. It's very basic, I just put your measurements to scale and added a panel layer.
Beam 9 is a biatch also.....3 1/4" out of parallel.

On Beam 4 ...I can get back some. I padded my numbers a bit as far as beam width on that end. I added 1" each side for the hex bolt head/nut & washers just to be safe. I could get that down to 1/4" with a forstner.

Beam 9 is a true hand-hewn 4.5....with another true 6.5 next to it. That may be my true nemesis.

If I absolutely have to, 9 could be moved. It would suck. 10.5+ heartpine t&g above, face nailed with cut nails. Being saved, so I would have to be very careful about it.
Side note: Floor above 3/16" +/- splines running in the joints. Did they lay it green and input the splines when it shrank? Worried about refinishing and those things flying out.

I would love the file. But I can't just take it without compensation.

You send me the file, I'll send you my world famous Buckwheat Blueberry Ricotta Pancake recipe and a supply of stone ground buckwheat pancake mix from Wade's Mill. 245 years of stoned goodness. Might be a nice treat on a cold morning up in VT.

Thanks again.

jonathan@blueridgegreenllc.com
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:11 AM   #36
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Re: Ceiling Math Mess


Beam #9 is 7.25" using what you gave me so it could be 8.25" box beam. You could probably even scratch the .25" if you aren't having any guys from CT over there.

I'll take that recipe but I don't think 3 minutes of time is worth the shipping on that flour. I can get my hands on some mill flour here in RI.

PS- I have no idea which part of the Sketchup file to attach so tell me if I got the wrong one.
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:36 AM   #37
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Re: Ceiling Math Mess


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Beam #9 is 7.25" using what you gave me so it could be 8.25" box beam. You could probably even scratch the .25" if you aren't having any guys from CT over there.

I'll take that recipe but I don't think 3 minutes of time is worth the shipping on that flour. I can get my hands on some mill flour here in RI.

PS- I have no idea which part of the Sketchup file to attach so tell me if I got the wrong one.
The Mac says it can't open the file......maybe the .skp .

Do I need to download Sketchup?
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:43 AM   #38
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Re: Ceiling Math Mess


Yes, download sketchup.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:30 AM   #39
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Re: Ceiling Math Mess


If you don't already have sketchup I'll send a scaled pdf.
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Old 03-16-2013, 08:12 PM   #40
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Re: Ceiling Math Mess


Turns out I realized that Beam 8 was below an existing old 10"+ plank floor (master bath) that I convinced them needed to be painted. {must have been laid green 125 yrs ago, then shrunk and they installed 1/4" splines in the gaps, and T's & G's so old that they won't hold up to sanding/refinishing) She refused to pull it.

So...I was able to move Beam 8 (the widest and most out of square).

Reduced the beam width to 8 1/2". Bays still inconsistent, but by a couple inches over 24", not incredibly noticeable.

Came up with attack plan.

Stabila rotary to get bead nailing strips dead, and lowest joist point for beam bottom final height.

Bead panel installed in bays.

Blocking mostly done......neck and shoulders on fire every night.

After final blocking....should be a breeze.

Poplar delivered from Jarrett Custom Millwork. Best in the biz. 16 footers, x6 x8 x10, dead straight, barely need to sand, cheaper than Lowe's crap pine.

Progress pics....more to come....thanks again.
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