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Old 06-01-2017, 06:52 PM   #1
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Service Providers


In general if seo service providers posted general website over views with some suggestions how many people would go back and make these changes?

Or if service providers shared such information freely would you see them as a person who knows what they are talking about and simply contact them to do the work for you?
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Old 06-01-2017, 10:56 PM   #2
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Re: Service Providers


Hi JBM,

Any reason why you isolated Service Providers into the question? I think it would be better to just ask how people operate when it comes to getting Free advice in general, especially from the Forum Participants like yourself.

I am sure you will agree it has been years where people come here to Contractor Talk saying "Check out my new website and give me some suggestions." It is traditionally met with a handful of people providing all sorts of advice in different directions. And many of those suggestions are valid and extremely detailed. Then the contractor says Thank You and disappears.

I have studied this for my business practices and would many times randomly look at their websites and watch them fall dormant. I did this over time to make decisions on how much it was worth it when it happens to me during my normal business day.

Of course this is not all the time, but it is many times.

And other times the website does move forward, but they take none of the Free advice into consideration.

As part of being a Service Provider you would not believe the volume of people sending these same inquiries directly to our businesses. I have even gotten requests from people who I saw here and my instinct they randomly go to myself and other similar companies to accumulate as much information to give to their programmers to get to work - it has happened a handful of times.

I can't speak for other service providers but we used to get a lot and figured out how to minimize providing guidance for Free, especially detailed guidance. I will not get into details for competitive reasons but my ratio has gotten pretty accurate on whether it is beneficial to help someone in hopes of getting a customer versus letting them go and have others spend the time and being distracted.

It can be like a similar analogy as a Remodeling Contractor being asked to provide Free Estimates versus the Remodeling Contractor deciding to charge a few hundred bucks for a design agreement to qualify a customer. Someone getting a Free Kitchen estimate is different than a prospect who is willing to spend a few hundred dollars to have a remodeling company create a professional design and estimate. There is no right or wrong, but rather the fit a contractor is looking for and what size they are and what type of customer they want.

It's a good poll idea but in this case it doesn't help people like yourself and other forum contributors. A better poll would be based on finding out how much people really implement against the time other forum folk spend guiding newbies here with requests for a free review of their sites. But I bet most would answer in a way that is self serving to continue to get Free Advice. So I would do like I have done before. Randomly take 20 websites in chronological order of them asking for advice and see for yourself what occurred.

Thanks for opening a poll on our behalves but don't forget to include yourself too. All the best!

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Old 06-02-2017, 11:45 AM   #3
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Re: Service Providers


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I am sure you will agree it has been years where people come here to Contractor Talk saying "Check out my new website and give me some suggestions." It is traditionally met with a handful of people providing all sorts of advice in different directions. And many of those suggestions are valid and extremely detailed. Then the contractor says Thank You and disappears.
I mostly agree, Brian, except for the significant number that disappear without even offering a thank you.

I'll offer an occasional feedback, but if you pay careful attention you would notice my lack of participation in reviewing web sites. I tend to gravitate toward participating in discussions about business, sales, and marketing, even though the vast majority of contractors will just shrug their shoulders and continue doing things their own way. That's human nature but some people genuinely do want to learn and grow their thinking. Those are the ones that can be helped.

Over the years I've learned a lot by interacting with people who know a lot more than I do. I don't mind sharing freely so someone else can benefit.
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Old 06-02-2017, 03:28 PM   #4
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Re: Service Providers


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Hi JBM,

Any reason why you isolated Service Providers into the question? I think it would be better to just ask how people operate when it comes to getting Free advice in general, especially from the Forum Participants like yourself.
By and large most contractors here give away any information they feel they can share. Over time we know who is excellent at what they do from the information they share.

Not true with seo service providers. I estimate around 70% of seo companies are do nothing seo experts. That would mean 7 out of 10 people who post here as seo experts are full of crap.

Quote:
I am sure you will agree it has been years where people come here to Contractor Talk saying "Check out my new website and give me some suggestions." It is traditionally met with a handful of people providing all sorts of advice in different directions. And many of those suggestions are valid and extremely detailed. Then the contractor says Thank You and disappears.
Yes of coarse, but there are also long time members here who, for example, got a virus of some sort and no one gave him much of a clue as to what happened. There are many examples of wonky situations that have come up and its like crickets.

I certainly dont need the information, my seo guy dances circles around what I think I know and will freely answer my questions.

Quote:
As part of being a Service Provider you would not believe the volume of people sending these same inquiries directly to our businesses. I have even gotten requests from people who I saw here and my instinct they randomly go to myself and other similar companies to accumulate as much information to give to their programmers to get to work - it has happened a handful of times.
But your on a contractor forum, and you do tend to offer guidance, but it is monitored as not to give away how to do much of anything specific. Again, not that I need it.

Quote:
Thanks for opening a poll on our behalves but don't forget to include yourself too. All the best!
I give away tons of knowledge, there is a folder for every trade full of people helping eachother, and I know specifically who knows more than me and is better at what then me, and its not because they post 200 word post about the history of basket weaving.

A month ago I was on the phone with an architect who couldnt find a mason that could build a see through fireplace. I emailed her plans on how to build it, then set up a meeting where we discussed it so she could reley the info.


Tomorrow I am going to look at a house a friend wants to buy to evaluate the condition of the masonry so he knows what he is in for.

I was on my neighbors roof because their solar water system was clogged and he didnt know anyone that goes on roofs.

MY other neighbor has an old chimney and part of the old partition walls collapsed and he wanted to make sure it was ok up there.

I am on another forum where I help out newbies detail their cars, as I know how to "buff" out paint.

Every where I post people can form an opinion of if I am full of crap or not because of the info I share. Ill bet you wouldnt ask me for business advice
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Old 06-02-2017, 04:29 PM   #5
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Re: Service Providers


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By and large most contractors here give away any information they feel they can share. Over time we know who is excellent at what they do from the information they share.

Not true with seo service providers. I estimate around 70% of seo companies are do nothing seo experts. That would mean 7 out of 10 people who post here as seo experts are full of crap.
I don't know if they are necessarily full of .... or it is just that they really do not understand marketing concepts for this industry. I work with so many website companies and independent programmers. There really are some talented website folk who know SEO but will not admit they do not know marketing - and there lies the problem.

I like to equate it to someone having a great word processor, be it MS Word or Google Docs. But no matter how good you are at the technology, you still need to be able to write to make use of the technology.

It is a shame on how many clients I work with that actually have a nice website and get no leads, but there is simply no real understanding of the construction marketing. Some sites are easy to convert when the programmer is willing to admit what they do not know, and others are impossible when the techie feels knowing the words "Title Tag" is a means to the end.

I do understand what you are saying when they are just throwing the buzzwords of SEO around, and not producing, but many of them are simply just weak at marketing (and therefore full of .... in your eyes )
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Old 06-02-2017, 04:54 PM   #6
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Re: Service Providers


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But your on a contractor forum, and you do tend to offer guidance, but it is monitored as not to give away how to do much of anything specific. Again, not that I need it.
This is not entirely true, but I am careful, not just here but anywhere I provide Free Advice since I need to limit the follow ups. There is only so much detail someone like me can provide, with the appropriate follow ups, to ensure someone does things correctly. But that is my career and not a passive topic.

Look at the Lead Gen topics I have spoken about. That is one heck of a lot of detail. Everyone complains and then I explain in a way that shows the dirt under the sheets. And I get a lot of private connections where people then want me to be specific for them, but I just can't do it without a limited commitment.

I obviously can not speak for the other SEO and Website folk, but all of that SEO you reference is a subset of what I do for Marketing Strategy and Planning. So the best thing I can do is offer people guidance to go in the right direction. From there they may continue to just keep asking many other people for Free Advice, or they finally decide to work with someone for Marketing and/or Websites and/or SEO.

But I think you got my intent wrong, I just was thinking along the lines of how much people really implement in marketing based on the random free advice. No harm done ...

And you are wrong, I do have questions, but only verbally since they are not meant to be shared with the entire world, especially my competitors (who are not active participants on this forum but I know come here to learn and see what I and others are up to). But if I can not ask verbally offline then I just can't ask at all, oh well .... Have a nice weekend.
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Old 06-03-2017, 08:10 AM   #7
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Re: Service Providers


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This is not entirely true, but I am careful, not just here but anywhere I provide Free Advice since I need to limit the follow ups. There is only so much detail someone like me can provide, with the appropriate follow ups, to ensure someone does things correctly. But that is my career and not a passive topic.

Look at the Lead Gen topics I have spoken about. That is one heck of a lot of detail. Everyone complains and then I explain in a way that shows the dirt under the sheets. And I get a lot of private connections where people then want me to be specific for them, but I just can't do it without a limited commitment.

I obviously can not speak for the other SEO and Website folk, but all of that SEO you reference is a subset of what I do for Marketing Strategy and Planning. So the best thing I can do is offer people guidance to go in the right direction. From there they may continue to just keep asking many other people for Free Advice, or they finally decide to work with someone for Marketing and/or Websites and/or SEO.

But I think you got my intent wrong, I just was thinking along the lines of how much people really implement in marketing based on the random free advice. No harm done ...

And you are wrong, I do have questions, but only verbally since they are not meant to be shared with the entire world, especially my competitors (who are not active participants on this forum but I know come here to learn and see what I and others are up to). But if I can not ask verbally offline then I just can't ask at all, oh well .... Have a nice weekend.
My perspective is marketers will tell contractors to be the authority in their field with their content, pictures, how they problems solve different situations, but when it comes time for marketers aka seo people to market themselves, they answer questions so vague that there is no meat on the bone. How can a community form an opinion if someone is an expert in their field or not? Considering all webguys are here for clients, how do the knuckle draggers know who's the expert?

Longevity here isnt a guarantee for exceptionalism.
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Old 06-03-2017, 01:35 PM   #8
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Re: Service Providers


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My perspective is marketers will tell contractors to be the authority in their field with their content, pictures, how they problems solve different situations, but when it comes time for marketers aka seo people to market themselves, they answer questions so vague that there is no meat on the bone. How can a community form an opinion if someone is an expert in their field or not? Considering all webguys are here for clients, how do the knuckle draggers know who's the expert?
It's a good point and a challenge I have when learning which website companies and programmers to work with and which not to work with.

And I hoping you are not referring to me, but who knows ...

Anyhow, a challenge specific to this forum for answering questions, that I would love to guide people to a page or video that I created to answer a question in detail. However, due to the TOS (Terms of Service) a service provider can sometimes get in trouble for answering if it leads to our webpages (which has happened to me too). So it is hard to help with details, if those details due in fact lead people to the very services I sell as part of the answer. It's sometimes a catch 22 since some answers took a lot of time to package correctly for other people, and I just can't provide by retyping, or it just takes too much time. And that is especially true when it comes to videos with a voice to explain.

But another way the community can form an opinion, at least for me, is really all about real existing customer testimonials, which is why I focus so heavily on them on my site. I have about 70+ with maybe another 2 or 3 Dozen that are released periodically just to keep the page freshness moving along. I ask my clients to write as best as they can to help educate contractors exactly where they were before buying our products and services and where they were after.

Over time some companies have been acquired, some retired, some have grown leaps and bounds and some moved on to new website companies as they matured and didn't need me anymore. But they all got whatever value they were looking for at that time and that to me is the best possible way to form an opinion.

But you are right when it comes to figuring out how other experts may or may not be a good business person, let alone whether they are an expert or not. But that should not just be left up to a few forum replies, but rather what is seen externally on websites, and a handful of other easy ways to research a company.

But I think for me I can say I am standing up straight and not dragging my knuckles, at least from my client's perspectives.
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Old 06-04-2017, 08:58 PM   #9
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Re: Service Providers


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And I hoping you are not referring to me, but who knows ..
The problem with this folder is people come and go, when youve been here as long as me, and some of the others, you get sick of the same ol same ol.

Maybe the marketers should step it up, because if a mason drops more seo know how then a seo expert then up is really down..

You all should at least keep pace with me dont ya think?
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Old 06-05-2017, 06:39 AM   #10
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Re: Service Providers


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The problem with this folder is people come and go, when youve been here as long as me, and some of the others, you get sick of the same ol same ol.

Maybe the marketers should step it up, because if a mason drops more seo know how then a seo expert then up is really down..

You all should at least keep pace with me dont ya think?
Absolutely, and I too have been here a long time. And I am not speaking for the other SEO persons, but in my case it is a two-fold answer.

1) SEO is a component of Marketing, and for me, it is Marketing first with a focus on SEO strategy second. Just knowing SEO doesn't make anyone the leader of the pack when it comes to image building and lead generation.
2) I can not answer in detail all the time simply due to trying to stay within the forum rules since we can incorporate answers that have been created to address the problem.

Can I give an example specific to your business?
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Old 06-06-2017, 11:16 AM   #11
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Well, this has turned into an interesting discussion. The original question was what to do with info given in a review. Brian quickly and accurately pointed out that too much of the time it's like a drive by question and a review thread is essentially fruitless. Speaking as a SP, I have no issues sharing when the info will not be ignored, but it seems more often than not, nothing happens.

So far, all the participants in this thread are long term members so I would expect all our reputations and mutual respect should be fine.

Quote:
Maybe the marketers should step it up, because if a mason drops more seo know how then a seo expert then up is really down..

You all should at least keep pace with me dont ya think?
Points already made influence my participation in review threads but also time. Brian and I share a low posting activity for the time we've been here. I have routinely disappeared for periods of time and even today is my first return since my post above. Sometimes, I may be following a thread but don't necessarily post, don't have time to adequately post, or wait until it plays out in a predictable way before I add to the discussion.

Quote:
Anyhow, a challenge specific to this forum for answering questions, that I would love to guide people to a page or video that I created to answer a question in detail. However, due to the TOS (Terms of Service) a service provider can sometimes get in trouble for answering if it leads to our webpages (which has happened to me too). So it is hard to help with details, if those details due in fact lead people to the very services I sell as part of the answer. It's sometimes a catch 22 since some answers took a lot of time to package correctly for other people, and I just can't provide by retyping, or it just takes too much time. And that is especially true when it comes to videos with a voice to explain.
This is an excellent point and one the CT members wouldn't necessarily be conscious of since they don't face the same considerations we need to be thinking about as SP's.

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Considering all webguys are here for clients
Sort of true but not entirely. Most of my posts are to benefit CT members I know would never become clients. There's a law of the universe I believe works without fail: You get back what you give. The vast majority of CT members are not my target clients. That's not a dig, just simply a fact, and not even a bad fact. I do get clients as a result of CT but not a huge number and that's not a concern. Interestingly, when I do get a client, it's often someone who rarely, sometimes never, posts on CT.

JBM, you know better than most here the value of letting a skilled pro do the web site and you do what you are good at. Most CT members will acknowledge that intellectually but not practice it. I made an observation many years ago when it comes to wealthy and successful people, NONE of them are DIY'ers and NO ONE making a long term practice of DIY'ing ever reaches the levels of people who delegate. Not everyone wants to reach those levels which is fine, but many people do want to go higher and shoot themselves in the foot by being a control freak.
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Old 06-06-2017, 09:01 PM   #12
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Re: Service Providers


I think I get where you're coming from, JBM. The analogy comparing you(or I) giving away free construction advice to what happens when a SEO person gives away their advice isn't entirely fair. We all possess knowledge that is hard won, but the barrier to entry for most construction projects is a lot higher than most digital marketing.

You can do 90% of SEO without spending any additional money and purchasing access to some of the best tools will only run you a few hundred dollars. You may also have to spend a LOT more time writing the content or editing the code, etc. than an experienced SEO would, but you CAN do almost all of it. That's not true of a lot of the skilled trades work. Even if someone did have a detailed guide, and also had access to all the equipment you have, they still couldn't build a fireplace that looked 25% as good as what you can.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the SEO's and/or web guys on here are far more reliant on the value of their intellectual property than we are so it's not quite fair to expect them to give it all away on an open forum that has searchable databases. On the other hand, if they're not going to give away ANY specifics, what's the benefit to the group? We have a few good ones and the rest are just blowing through, IMO.
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Old 06-06-2017, 09:20 PM   #13
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On my final point above I was thinking earlier of an exchange I had with a friend many years ago that helped greatly influence my understanding of the principle I outlined. It happened after I had an incident at home that required what I considered a very minor fix in my home (one I learned pretty much by osmosis growing up and watching my dad fix almost anything which I marveled at when I was young).

When I mentioned the problem and the fact that I had fixed it, he was shocked. He said something to the effect he was surprised someone with my skills in web design, computers, marketing and such would have the ability to deal with a household repair issue which to me was simple because of my background. He stated that the only tool he would be able to use in that situation was a telephone.

Knowing this friend I couldn't simply feel good about my skills, I learned a valuable lesson. He couldn't have repaired the simple plumbing issue I fixed but I don't have a private jet, a pilots license, and the ability to fly anywhere in the world I wish to. He does and I'd rather use a phone instead too. CT members need people like him as customers.

I've seen this principle reinforced repeatedly over the years. About 6 weeks ago, I attended a business conference and the host made a statement to the effect he LOVES to mow the lawn. I can understand. It's therapeutic. I need such activities myself after the hours I spend at the computer. But he had to find new therapy because he came to the realization that unless he was paying over $200 an hour for someone else to cut his grass that he couldn't afford to do it himself.

This may be only mildly related to the topic as stated but it is related and worthy of consideration when dealing with the subject of service providers. It's helped me a lot over the years. There's a lot of things I know how to do but it makes no sense for me to do them all.
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Old 06-10-2017, 10:47 PM   #14
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Re: Service Providers


I don't want the service providers to give away all their IP for free, but what I would love is if they would stop claiming to be number one with no actual proof to back up their claim.

I don't bother with much of the website reviews around here because it usually ends up being a bunch of new posters who go oh it's ok but I could have done way better.

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Old 06-11-2017, 01:39 PM   #15
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I don't want the service providers to give away all their IP for free, but what I would love is if they would stop claiming to be number one with no actual proof to back up their claim.

I don't bother with much of the website reviews around here because it usually ends up being a bunch of new posters who go oh it's ok but I could have done way better.

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Most seo people's try to promote themselves without exhibiting any technical seo know how. Whereas contractors have to be the authority on their subject and exhibit extensive knowledge to be taken seriously....
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Old 06-12-2017, 11:16 AM   #16
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Most seo people's try to promote themselves without exhibiting any technical seo know how. Whereas contractors have to be the authority on their subject and exhibit extensive knowledge to be taken seriously....
I don't know about that. Have you seen HGTV? The biggest remodeling companies in my state all rely on completely untrained salespeople. It makes my skin crawl to listen to them but I think most people don't really care about the details. The ones that do are the ones that use us so it feels like a higher % than it really is.

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