Price Is Not Negotiable

Remodel Bud

and to think this whole thread ended in a You Tube sales meeting

Carport King

Come on guys keep up the good work I am learning so much here. In our sales meeting Friday I put this post up for all our plaid wearing tin men and gals to enjoy.

Hey we had a blast picking away at some of the post and hey some new names where flying around the room at Mike and Buddy. Now remember I am in a room with 16 pro's so you know they like the Buddy guy the best!

But Mike I did stand up for you once in awhile because hey you do have 9000 some post so that was worth a shot compared to that Buddy guy with only 200 post.

Well I did take a poll with my sales/tin men/gals on which person you would rather work for.Sorry Mike but they are more exterior type sales group but they did like the lessons and a good slug fest.

So see how to use this as selling tool? Everyone left the room pumped and oh what a sales day it was! Thanks Guys/Gals

Mike Finley

Personally I could careless what a roomful of slack-jawed, half-assed home improvement "professional" salespeople have to say. Like Alec Baldwin's unrefutable measuring stick in the moive, put on your crew to sell the common trait amongst your crew would be their smaller paystubs compared to mine. It's been that way my entire selling career. So save your sales meeting bullsh*t for your salesman who know no better.

Organizations such as yourselves, sales consultants and anyone else teaches quantity vs quality.

You have no choice. Quantity is much easier to teach, can be systematized and organized much easier by a mediocre sales manager and is scalable.

Quantity can be effected much quicker and much easier and quality is more difficult to effect. Sales training tries to effect quality, but the sales system employed by the company is always based on quanity. The salesmanager can try to effect quality by bringing in coaches and training but when numbers don't respond or go down due to economic conditions the salesmanager first knee jerk reaction is to fall back upon his systems which are designed to deal with quantity. That's a fact and that's the world you both live in.

It's diametrically opposed to the small contractor / small operator.

When you're in a bigger organization the solution is simply to effect volume, hire more sales people, cut prices to make more deals, the mediocre quantity based sales process's failures simply get covered up by increasing volume. (Don't believe me? Just look to this thread and read the parts about how you make up for it by selling the neighbor and generating referals- point out by the poster as the reason why you win by cutting price- that is the big organizations answer because it's too hard to do it any other way- however what is missed is that you can still sell to the neighbor and still get referrals from customers sold to without cutting the price! Those still exist with the one big exception, all are sold at higher profit margins.)

Problem is the quanity sales approach doesn't work worth a damn in the small contractor's business since usually the owner is the salesman and increasing volume simply isn't a logistical option.

End result is what we have in the home improvement business today. Lots of robbing of Peter to pay Paul going on all through out it.

Mostly caused by the small business operator looking for sales help and information and naturally they look toward those bigger then themselves, only problem is they are then being taught the same flawed sales practices these bigger organizations can cover up with more volume, however the small operator doesn't have that option available to him.

The small operator employs these flawed methods of cutting price to make the sale and the results are what we have today in this industry.

Remodel Bud

are you drinking again?

I have no clue what you are referring to or talking to?
You know so much about the ugly side of the business, why is that?

I did high volume, had high quality and also had over a 40% referral base.
I just ignore your tirades because you try to group everyone into a CATEGORY, and I laugh because you just don't get it or understand it. Sales for a high volume can be achieved by having a great reputation, ever think of that!!? Sales by a high volume can be achieved by having excellent quality, ever think of that!!? Salein a high volume can be acheived by operating a business so much better than your competition, ever think of that!!! ?

Take you know it all better than thow attitude and go sell it to someone who is listening to your bs, cause I don't like it.

You must have some lousy experiences or done some of these tactics you talk about so much.

rbsremodeling

Once again it comes back to what type of biz your in. Large volume remodeling sales has to focus a bit more on volume. A sales person pay is tied to the sales not necessarily the price.

A smaller remodeler is going to push His quality and his price. I also think most professional remodelers think that their product is better than average and this to translate into higher cost with validate reasons behind it.

There is one arguement here but two different worlds/sides to this conversation and you guys are not arguing apples to apples.

Bud and Glen are bigger but Mike is stronger whose gonna when the fight??

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Remodel Bud

it's not about winning a fight,it is about Mike understanding that being a high volume company we didn't focus on price, but quality & reputation and still achieved our goals, plus maintained a high profit. He likes to group every high volume company into a "sleazy" tin man operation & that misconception is a stereotype I don't appreciate. I can sell with the best of them as could my entire outfit and learned many other skills that will benefit me a life time. I also work with three remodeling companies as a consultant ranging in upscale remodeling and they have adopted & learned sales skills we used to their benefit, not to mention how to maintain a solid business organization and be more profitable. I don't give them cheesy tapes or one of the million ridiculous books to read either. It is all subtle positive ethics based training that starts with building value and quality, customer service and great production team to give the sales team confidence! I don't take everyone who calls, i am very selective. As I mentioned earlier three companies- all losing money last year- two are now profitable and the third is close. I give them till March and they will be in the black! I guess i can teach a upscale remodeler how to be successful! I am positive Mike runs a good organization & can tell by his words and passion. I haven't tagged him as the "money pit builder" I remember a line from that movie when the contractor showed up and said ------

"Are you saving the scotch for the good guests? Yeah, you need all new plumbing, Go ahead and write me a check for 10 grand before I change my mind" & sped off in a caddy with the scotch bottle. Mike, I never said you drive a caddy and run off with checks, should I group you in that category?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPz-j3bfq3E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Poch...eature=related

rbsremodeling

Fight was used as a metaphor

Mike's negative opinion of a organization or type of business should not bother you at all unless you fit his negative description. He is entitled to his opinion as you are to yours

I am a small volume remodeler now and love my business more now than when I did high volume salees, it is not for me, but I do not knock the guys that do it.

In fact I applaud those who can play at that level and make it work day in day out.


You just have to agree to disagree. It is that simple. You guys are on two different ends of the field.

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Remodel Bud

I understand that. We all are entitled to our opinions, I agree. The manner in which it is presented is the bothersome part, not the opinion itself....as per the reply to Carport king. That is my opinion.
You are always respectable & i highly value your opinion.

AskForTheSale

Real business consultants teach how to be a solution provider to the customer who asks the Contractor “When can you start I am ready?” when he is finished with the presentation, not how to “negotiate” when the customer asks you to discount, lower or match the competition because you were an order taker in the customer’s eyes and NOT a REAL Salesman/Consultant who could solve their problem or provide for their needs as a professional.

Anyone can be an order taker, but not everyone is capable of being a true salesman/consultant to a customer and solving their needs.

Why would a business consultant come on here and preach negotiate, but yet BRAG about being particular himself in who he selects to conduct business with while preaching this negotiating diatribe which only makes you look UNPROFESSIONAL.

I could dissect this whole thread and show so many contradictions it would make your heads spin.

Thanks for the laughs.

Can I put consultant below my name too?

It seems everyone in their mother on these forum boards these days consider themselves consultants but yet have no clue.

Even the MAJORITY of real consultants who put on seminars are lost and just repeat each others points in a different way to the contractors in all the different industries.

No wonder so many contractors are screwed up when it comes to the business aspect, every Tom is a “consultant” and some are not even capable of using correct grammar in their postings, but they are the “experts”.

Remodel Bud

yet you offer ZERO, NADDA NOTHING, ZILTCH. POST YOUR RESUME THAN I WILL POST MINE> TALK IS CHEAP!!!!!!

Tim Nagle, in the Richmond VA area, has started promoting his consulting business through constructive contractortalk.com postings. One of the most effective ways for you to market professional and consulting services is to achieve expert status on relevant Internet forums. As you contribute and post your insights and observations, your reputation will soar — if you do it right.

Sometimes, new people arrive on the scene with a real splash. TimNagle, who goes by the user ID “Remodel Bud” joined the fray with some provocative posting beginning with this thread, “Sales Training Instruction 9 - 2 - 08″. Intrigued, I phoned Nagle, whoseRemodelBuddy weblink takes you to a regional leads referral service for the Richmond, VA area. Before starting out on his own as a consultant/local leads service provider, Nagle had been a partner of one of the most successful home improvement companies in the nation; Champion Window, Siding and Patio room. Tim Nagle took over the Richmond branch, which he turned from a money-losing business into one of the most successful branches in the Champion network, generating upwards of $10 million in sales each year. Nagle says Champion decided to use his location as a training centre for other location managers, who could see first-hand how to do things properly.

Nagle believes contractors should hire only commissioned sales representatives. (This point is debated by many pundits — but the consensus seems to be for retail-focused direct to consumer sales, commission sales appear to have the greatest industry acceptance.)But where/how do you find the great salespeople you need to run your business?First, says Nagle, make the business truly appealing –”build a culture of success.” (When he took over the responsibility for Champion in Richmond, this meant months of house cleaning, as many lower performing people were dismissed.)”The hiring process starts before you hire anyone — you are building the culture in the office; a great environment leads to great success,” he said. “Whenever I interview a salesperson, I let them interview the other salespeople in the office — and they want to work there.”To find new representatives, “you are out looking for people actively, networking, checking other companies, home shows and contractor businesses, which is generally the best means of hiring.”Building a sales team is a constant work in progress,” Nagle said. “You have to be working (at recruitment) when there isn’t a need to look.”

For his consulting service, Nagle said fees vary depending on what is required. Some people, he said, just need phone consultations and coaching; In other cases, Tim Nagle said he is asked to conduct full-blown on-site sales training and hiring. He is selective in the clients he works with. A younger contractor with a good head on his shoulders and willingness/eagerness to learn will receive his services at a negotiated fee or a established company looking to grow. Is Nagle worth his fees? I can’t be sure — but his writing and communications suggest he knows what he is doing & his resume is second to none– and of course you can check his references and validate his abilities in the early going of your relationship. One thing is certain: Some solid consulting from experts who really know their stuff can save you much agony, frustration, and wheel-spinning as you build and maintain your business. And you can learn something from Nagle.

http://www.startupnation.com

Location: Glen Allen, VA
United States of America Industry:Consulting ServicesEntrepreneurial Stage:SoloMember Since:Jul. 09, What I Do:Owner/ Operator of a contractor consulting firmInterests:Family activities, Golf, Exercise, ReadingMore about me: I was a partner & national trainer for one of Americas largest home improvement company's and now have gone from corporate life to my own business. I own a Contractor referral service/ consulting firm. I offer contractors a consulting service for Media buys, Marketing programs, Profit & Loss analysis along with Sales Training and coaching. My background is very strong in getting results with a proven track record. I teach people how to be the "Man in the Middle" and run a effective business that empowers employees to their maximum potential. A culture of success. Please see my marketplace listing:

Are you thinking of a Business Coach or a Consultant? I can make a positive difference for you and your business!

Timothy Nagle has an excellent background in achieving success in Home Improvement business with the largest national home improvement company in America. Our team success included being number one in profit nationally & building a sales team that led the company .This achievement led to being their national trainer for new branch managers. Nationally, there were 70 cities we were operating in and being at the top of 70 cities was not an easy task.

Nagle has left the corporate world and sold his partnership at 41 years old.
"I really want to help & coach business owners into building a culture for success. Being the "Man in the Middle" with all those hats is a position that should be enjoyable and not dreaded. I can teach you how to build a business that will thrive and run itself. I will generate a culture for success through Time management, organization, training programs , empowering employees, Sales training and Marketing skills . The profit and loss financial statement will be the best profit ever! Brand your name, build your team and make your life passion a success. I have done it. Let me teach you too!".......

Remodel Bud

You are quick to criticize grammar, spelling...."WHO cares" correct your own first
You claim to be the sales Guru, yet I don't see anything of any intelligence except pointing your hypocritical finger at someone else. You should run for office in politics" criticize but yet offer no solutions"
Why would I come in here you ask.....to help. Why do you?....to feed your ego and question others ability without your own solutions & when you do not know anything about them?

When you do more than install a couple HVAC units and post more than "how to effectively use a dumpster" we'll listen for a good laugh. as you say! When you want to compare resume's from a third party, we'll post them for all to see and take a poll.

Remodel Bud

Here are the majority of my posts, show me the contradictions Mr. Dumpster poster.
1st post

if you don't negotiate, you will lose sales. If you are losing more sales than you desire, then change your approach. If you keep doing the same things, you get the same results.

I am sure you do good work and i understand how you feel, along with the others postings. There isn't a reason to be upset though. PLEASE understand that people like to feel as if they are getting a deal.

Sales is a "game" so to speak and you can close more deals by adding in a percentage to your job, then learning how to deduct it to close the deal and still reach the desired price for the project. Running a good home improvement company means getting more business, by closing more leads. Closing more leads means learning more techniques.

it's important to have good sales negotiation skills in order to survive in nowadays' dog-eat-dog, take-no-prisoners show-no-mercy business environment. This is especially important for those who own and operate their own businesses. Such a person literally needs to be a "Jack-of-all-trades," because there is so much to do and keep track of, all of which require many skills - including negotiation skills. This is an important skill set to have when dealing with partners and employees, but is even more vital when dealing with customers. Good sales negotiation skills will put you in charge of the situation while enabling you to find solutions that satisfy all parties involved

I never said close on price alone. It is a TOOL of negotiating. It could be the highest price.

Generally speaking, negotiating doesn't have to be about price. I think the situation is if you are in the design/ build business vs. what I was in Home Improvements on a smaller scale, you are dealing with a couple appts and maybe a draftsman or architect. That is a bit different and is more so about relationships. I also, try very hard to build relationships,but if I am installing 10 windows in one day......i don't have as much of a relationship as a builder thats there two months. So ultimately, they are two different scenarios.....or are they really?


If a homeowner calls you and says thank you for the estimate on the addition, we are trying to decide between you and company ABC. We don't want to change the plans and want to do it as is, but company ABC is at 85,000 and you are 91,000. If you can do it for 85,000 and not change the plans, we'll choose you.

Now. Do you walk away? do you compare apples to apples? do you re-build the value and your company's quality.....? Probably, no don't walk away, but ry the other two. There are 100 hundred different scenarios so we won't cover them all.....or do you finally after the first few attempts that didn't succeed (lets just say)....do you negotiate?

10 leads and 2 sold. Someone would be a poor business man or person, not to follow up on why the other 8 were not sold. If a few percent was the difference, would it be worth it to negotiate to make a profit or not?
That few percent you negotiated could lead to the neighbors house or more referrals vs. the other company getting that TOO.
There isn't a correct answer, its all opinion. but you know where i stand. I heard a good saying" It's better to feed your family, than feed your ego"

I can appreciate not negotiating and standing your ground & there are customers that should be walked way from, no doubt. BUT, are you losing business from not negotiating.....would be my question. If you say no, you may want to honestly re-evaluate them & call back the 8 that were not sold. A higher closing percentage usually means higher profits

I mentioned negotiating is not a drop your pants, give away, discount coupon BS, we have relationships blah,blah,blah.

I WAS SAYING that to help close deals, get the one that maybe would get away. learn to negotiate.

Generally speaking, negotiating doesn't have to be about price. I think the situation is if you are in the design/ build business vs. what I was in Home Improvements on a smaller scale, you are dealing with a couple appts and maybe a draftsman or architect. That is a bit different and is more so about relationships. I also, try very hard to build relationships,but if I am installing 10 windows in one day......i don't have as much of a relationship as a builder thats there two months. So ultimately, they are two different scenarios.....or are they similar in a few aspects...


If a homeowner calls you and says thank you for the estimate on the addition, we are trying to decide between you and company ABC. We don't want to change the plans and want to do it as is, but company ABC is at 85,000 and you are 91,000. If you can do it for 85,000 and not change the plans, we'll choose you.

Now. Do you walk away? do you compare apples to apples? do you re-build the value and your company's quality.....? Probably, no don't walk away, but ry the other two. There are 100 hundred different scenarios so we won't cover them all.....or do you finally after the first few attempts that didn't succeed (lets just say)....do you negotiate?

10 leads and 2 sold. Someone would be a poor business man or person, not to follow up on why the other 8 were not sold. If a few percent was the difference, would it be worth it to negotiate to make a profit or not?
That few percent you negotiated could lead to the neighbors house or more referrals vs. the other company getting that TOO.
There isn't a correct answer, its all opinion. but you know where i stand. I heard a good saying" It's better to feed your family, than feed your ego"

I can appreciate not negotiating and standing your ground & there are customers that should be walked way from, no doubt. BUT, are you losing business from not negotiating.....would be my question. If you say no, you may want to honestly re-evaluate them & call back the 8 that were not sold. A higher closing percentage usually means higher profits

AskForTheSale

My first paragraph in my post had "real" facts. You were too busy looking for an argument being my entire post was full of actual facts from someone who knows.

Quote:

POST YOUR RESUME THAN I WILL POST MINE> TALK IS CHEAP!!!!!!

Here is your first lesson in "consulting".

Your "knowledge" is your resume, not a piece of paper and if you have to let a piece of paper impress a potential client or make a bunch of postings on a forum to acquire business instead of sharing a few bits of knowledge that you can impart face to face and display the fact you can help a potential clients business, then you are lost friend.
Lesson Two.

If you think your experience in high pressure retail "negotiating" sales spans across ALL construction trades/Industries and is universal, then you are even more clueless than I have seen so far.

Your lack of Grammar abilities shot a whole in the side of your ship with me right off the bat.

Third lesson for you.

You, yourself, talk about in your diatribe you just posted, you will negotiate your fees.

The most fatal mistake any start-up business can make is to charge below market/profitable fees JUST TO OBTAIN BUSINESS, and YOU do not even understand that fact.

You are out of your league with me.

Free advice is closed.

Remodel Bud

HERE ARE SOME OF YOUR INTELLIGENT POSTS ON HERE MR. EXPERT

Sell your pants at a garage sale and take the money and have a large hand sign made with an ad that says “We will work our pants off for you”.

Stand at a corner in your G-string with fliers in hand.

Drastic times call for drastic marketing measures.

Seriously, work your contacts and spend money to market, market, market to make the phone ring, ring, ring.



1)one pair of overalls
2)one pair of Redwing Boots, polished and shined
3)one folding ruler
4)one carpenter pencil
5)one note pad
6)Honesty

Remodel Bud

I think I have accomplished quite a bit without you.....and will continue to.
I let my experience do the talking along with the companies I have worked with.

Just because you can find spelling and grammar mistakes in a posting board qualifies you for a daycare center babysitter. Thanks for the fun tonight. I'll take a cheeseburger and a coke...stick to your day job.

I am rarely going to fire back, but when you attack my credentials behind a computer.......i can't help but LAUGH at you

I will not honor you with anymore responses, you don't deserve any more of my time.

AskForTheSale

Who cares you ask?

You are the one out here with your identity splashed all over your postings and you ask who cares?

ROFLMAO. I thought you wanted to utilize this site to attract business and you don't care about your professional image?

You just got another cannonball in the side of your ship.
I never claimed to be a "sales Guru". You are outright lying here. Show where I stated this.

I said, "You are out of your league with me"


Most egomaniacs do not absorb wisdom when they are too busy beating their own chest in public forums.

You ignoring facts does not make you correct.
Seems you are the one with the "ego" problem being how you are wanting to flash your resume around.

Are you applying for David Letterman's position? Is he retiring soon?

First, thanks for displaying your maturity so well for the world to see.

Second, it actually requires a WHOLE lot of knowledge to design, solve issues, and educate a customer before you actually get to the matter of "installing" the HVAC unit. Obviously this tid-bit of wisdom is too much for your main breaker to hold.

And about the dumpster post I made, that too was over your head being how it actually was discussing cost analysis and you obviously missed it Mr. "consultant".

Mike thought it was also an accurate posting.

Why would a "consultant" tear down a cost analysis posting that could help other contractors realize a lesson "and" increase their bottom line "and" increase their available "time" in a day Mr. "consultant"?


My knowledge is my resume and the facts I post prove it, even as few as they are so far on this site.

So much for you to learn in such a little time frame grasshopper.

AskForTheSale

Seriously, are you so clueless you are incapable of picking out the humor and real advice in that posting I made?

Is your bulb that dim?

Another fact, only mental cases go back and read other postings in other threads on a forum site to try and find fault.

Consultant ay? You need a Psychologist.

genecarp

wow, i turn my back for a minute, and this thread goes down the toilet, you guys are funny, i think the thread lock police are coming.....

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Remodel Bud

SO you were trying to be funny? VERY bad attempt.....

YOU need to spend more time correcting YOU and not worry about other people. Thats free advice....you need it!

rbsremodeling

I already have my chain around the thread I am just waiting for the mod lock

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