Overhead And Profit

QRI · 03-09-2010, 07:15 PM

Just wondering what percentage everyone is marking up materials? Also how much are you making up sub contractors bids? I am mainly a renovator, but have an opportunity to bid what might be a fairly lucrative TI. The TI could make our nut for the rest of the year so I don't want to screw this one up.

HSConstruction · 03-09-2010, 08:16 PM

what is TI?

buddy110 · 03-09-2010, 08:20 PM

We shoot for a 55% GP after direct job costs

QRI · 03-09-2010, 08:22 PM

TI - Tenant Improvement

Those changes, typically to office, retail, or industrial property, to accommodate specific needs of a tenant. TIs include installation or relocation of interior walls or partitions, carpeting or other floor covering, shelves, windows, toilets, etc

Ayerzee · 03-09-2010, 08:41 PM

I recommend reading this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Markup-Profit-.../dp/1572180714

HSConstruction · 03-09-2010, 08:47 PM

Regardless of what anyone says the % should be figure it out for yourself.

What is the lowest amount you can do it for and still be profitable?
What is the highest amount you think they will pay?
Place your magic number in the middle and go get it.

QRI · 03-09-2010, 09:00 PM

Thanks for the replies.

Ayerzee - I will take a look at that book next time I am at the book store.

HSConstruction - Thats kind of what I have been doing so far. I just started subing out my tile work. Sometimes I tack 5 - 10%, sometimes I don't make a dime off of his work. I am the only employee so I don't have a huge overhead. Sometimes I don't feel as if I am charging enough, other times I feel like I am charging too much. I was kind of hoping that there would be a general consensus.

Ayerzee · 03-09-2010, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QRI

Thanks for the replies.

Ayerzee - I will take a look at that book next time I am at the book store.

HSConstruction - Thats kind of what I have been doing so far. I just started subing out my tile work. Sometimes I tack 5 - 10%, sometimes I don't make a dime off of his work. I am the only employee so I don't have a huge overhead. Sometimes I don't feel as if I am charging enough, other times I feel like I am charging too much. I was kind of hoping that there would be a general consensus.

Hey no problem. You'll find that it's a pretty popular book and a lot of contractor's read it.

CSinc. · 03-09-2010, 09:44 PM

i usually go 20 to 25% on material and then add in my costs and i still come out better than their previous or next bids.sometimes they ask how i can do it for less and not sacrifice quality.i tell all my potential clients that my bids are always so reasonable because my overhead is lower than the bigger companies because i dont sub out my work and i dont have project managers and salesman to feed.

QRI · 03-09-2010, 10:31 PM

As a general rule I have been marking everything up 10%. After reading another thread it looks like I need to do an actual assessment of my overhead. I have been fearful that my proposals would be to expensive. There is a lot of competition here and most of it is unlicensed "handyman" types. I have been making what I believe to be decent profit, but I am probably short changing myself.

Greg Di · 03-09-2010, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QRI

As a general rule I have been marking everything up 10%. After reading another thread it looks like I need to do an actual assessment of my overhead. I have been fearful that my proposals would be to expensive. There is a lot of competition here and most of it is unlicensed "handyman" types. I have been making what I believe to be decent profit, but I am probably short changing myself.

Welcome to contracting. We hope you enjoy your stay.

QRI · 03-09-2010, 10:53 PM

I am just thankful that there are resources like CT. I am doing the best that I can to set myself up for success. This place makes achieving that goal a little easier.

decksandfences · 03-18-2010, 08:10 PM

agreed, just finished my financials of last yr and I have much to learn

Michael Stone · 03-19-2010, 07:34 PM

Hey Gang:

Read your posts and maybe there are some additional things to consider here.

First question: Why are you in business? Are you in it just to keep a job or do you want to make some money, take care of your family? Do you want to provide for your lady in a manner that makes her happy and you proud? If you just want to keep a job, then by all means focus on being competitive and being the lowest "bid". That is an option everyone in construction has.

Let's see, I give you the lowest price for your job and I win. Something is wrong with that picture my friends. You do have the option of participating in that game. The question is, to what end?

On the other hand, if you focus your efforts on being profitable, then you will make good money and provide for your families.

In doesn't make any difference where you live, and I can say that having customers in all 50 states, 8 Provinces of Canada and 16 other countries around the world. You can give your work away using a 10%, 15% or 20% markup and eventually end up going broke with more bills to pay than there is money in your checkbook. I get at least three companies a week calling for coaching help that have done just that. Or, you can polish up your sales skills, pick a better brand of client and go sell your work with a minimum markup of at least 1.50 times your job costs. That is what the pros in this business do every day and in your city or town.

In both our books, Markup and Profit; A Contractors Guide and in the companion book Profitable Sales; A Contractor's Guide we talk about these issues in depth. We also take you through the math so there is no doubt about where your markup should be, what you should charge for your work, etc.

I certainly don't want to come across as mean or nasty here, but I do believe in laying the cards on the table. Let's leave painting flowers around things to the artists of the world. You need to price your jobs to make good money. Your choice, your decision, your families.

QRI · 03-19-2010, 07:49 PM

Thanks for the input Michael. I want to be profitable, no question about it. I am in this for the long haul. This isn't a job, it's a career. I am ordering your book Markup and Profit; A Contractors Guide this weekend. I know that it won't answer all of my questions, but hopefully it will get me moving in the right direction.

**rselectric1** · 03-19-2010, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Stone

Hey Gang:

Read your posts and maybe there are some additional things to consider here.

First question: Why are you in business? Are you in it just to keep a job or do you want to make some money, take care of your family? Do you want to provide for your lady in a manner that makes her happy and you proud? If you just want to keep a job, then by all means focus on being competitive and being the lowest "bid". That is an option everyone in construction has.

Let's see, I give you the lowest price for your job and I win. Something is wrong with that picture my friends. You do have the option of participating in that game. The question is, to what end?

On the other hand, if you focus your efforts on being profitable, then you will make good money and provide for your families.

In doesn't make any difference where you live, and I can say that having customers in all 50 states, 8 Provinces of Canada and 16 other countries around the world. You can give your work away using a 10%, 15% or 20% markup and eventually end up going broke with more bills to pay than there is money in your checkbook. I get at least three companies a week calling for coaching help that have done just that. Or, you can polish up your sales skills, pick a better brand of client and go sell your work with a minimum markup of at least 1.50 times your job costs. That is what the pros in this business do every day and in your city or town.

In both our books, Markup and Profit; A Contractors Guide and in the companion book Profitable Sales; A Contractor's Guide we talk about these issues in depth. We also take you through the math so there is no doubt about where your markup should be, what you should charge for your work, etc.

I certainly don't want to come across as mean or nasty here, but I do believe in laying the cards on the table. Let's leave painting flowers around things to the artists of the world. You need to price your jobs to make good money. Your choice, your decision, your families.

WOW! This is pretty cool. I bought your book on the recommendation of lots of guys here too. (JumboJack's recommendation was the final straw) What's evident is that you have been in the trenches too.

So far so good.

HomeSealed · 03-20-2010, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Stone

Hey Gang:

Read your posts and maybe there are some additional things to consider here.

First question: Why are you in business? Are you in it just to keep a job or do you want to make some money, take care of your family? Do you want to provide for your lady in a manner that makes her happy and you proud? If you just want to keep a job, then by all means focus on being competitive and being the lowest "bid". That is an option everyone in construction has.

Let's see, I give you the lowest price for your job and I win. Something is wrong with that picture my friends. You do have the option of participating in that game. The question is, to what end?

On the other hand, if you focus your efforts on being profitable, then you will make good money and provide for your families.

In doesn't make any difference where you live, and I can say that having customers in all 50 states, 8 Provinces of Canada and 16 other countries around the world. You can give your work away using a 10%, 15% or 20% markup and eventually end up going broke with more bills to pay than there is money in your checkbook. I get at least three companies a week calling for coaching help that have done just that. Or, you can polish up your sales skills, pick a better brand of client and go sell your work with a minimum markup of at least 1.50 times your job costs. That is what the pros in this business do every day and in your city or town.

In both our books, Markup and Profit; A Contractors Guide and in the companion book Profitable Sales; A Contractor's Guide we talk about these issues in depth. We also take you through the math so there is no doubt about where your markup should be, what you should charge for your work, etc.

I certainly don't want to come across as mean or nasty here, but I do believe in laying the cards on the table. Let's leave painting flowers around things to the artists of the world. You need to price your jobs to make good money. Your choice, your decision, your families.

I'd say a "donation" to the site administrators is in order for those book sales.

KennMacMoragh · 03-20-2010, 01:28 AM

I am reading it too, haven't gotten through much of it yet though.

KG007 · 03-21-2010, 06:58 PM

As you are probably figuring out, everybody does something different. I will tell you from my years as a CPA working with clients, most people underprice their value.

We have a tendency to figure cost and then add a profit margin to it. Understandable, but has no real basis in figuring the value of work. Think a heart suregon does that? Let's see, I'm going to have 1.75 hours in this, plus some subs from the hospital and other doctors. I think I ought to figure it at $30 an hour for me, because $50 an hour sounds high. And I'll add 10% to the other costs.

Fat chance. They charge based more on the value of the work and the skill it takes. Think insurance rates are based on $30 an hur or something? Hell no, they are based on what going charges were at some point, then tried to negotiate doctors down. The amount charged for medical visits bears little relationship to costs. And doctors complain they can't make it on insurance reimbursements. What they mean is they can't make the living they feel they should be making on insurance rates that are chincy. And they are right. But if it wasn't for insurance, where few people actually pay their own bill, doctors wouldn't make nearly as much as they do. I don't begrudge it to them at all. They are highly trained and usually very dedicated. But they have an advantage of not having to say "your operation is $22,000. ... So you have a bid for it for $13,500?"

Got any idea what the GM is on women's or men's clothing? It usually starts at 70-80%. Even on deep discount sales it is still usually 25-35%.

Ever looked at the labor rate at a car dealership? Probably $85 to $125 per hour, minimum $50 if you pull it in. Why? Is a mechanic any more skilled than you? Think the mechanic is making $120/hour? NO, car dealers are better at computing what it takes to successfully maintain a dealership AND take home a really nice living if they have anywhere close to a decent volume of business. (And a car dealereship can lose money in a heartbeat if poorly run or business volume drops off like it has.)

As a rule of thumb, if you aren't marking up materials and subs, and aren't making AT LEAST 20% GM, and more like 30% plus, you are on the way to either going broke or never making enough to justify being self-employed. And you still have got to get volume well above breakeven then. But we SHOULD be pricing based on what work is worth. Good luck.

Home Builder · 04-30-2010, 03:48 PM

OK. I can deifinately see what you are saying. However, in an economy like this and in a poor market, how do you survive with those kind of mark ups when your competition is "low balling" jobs just to stay busy. I realize you need to sell your service and quality and so forth, however, there are some people who are simply numbers people and that is all they look at. Getting a better clientle is a nice thought but much easier said than done. I just don't see how you can get many jobs with that kind of mark up. If I am doing an addition that has a material and sub cost of $60,000 there is no way in hell most people are going to pay me an additional $30,000 for that kind of job. It would be nice, but unlikely. We are lucky to make $30,000 on a $250,000 house.

03-09-2010, 07:15 PM	#1
QRI View Profile QRI Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (61) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: General Contractor Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 61	Overhead And Profit Just wondering what percentage everyone is marking up materials? Also how much are you making up sub contractors bids? I am mainly a renovator, but have an opportunity to bid what might be a fairly lucrative TI. The TI could make our nut for the rest of the year so I don't want to screw this one up. __________________ Reno Remodeling Contractor Facebook Last edited by QRI; 03-09-2010 at 10:26 PM. Reason: Improper Title

03-09-2010, 08:16 PM	#2
HSConstruction View Profile HSConstruction Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (416) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Remodeler Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: NW NJ Posts: 416	Re: Overhead And Profit what is TI? __________________ Kitchen and Bath Remodel Warren County NJ, Sussex County NJ, Morris County NJ

03-09-2010, 08:20 PM	#3
buddy110 View Profile buddy110 Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1,278) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Exteriors as a whole Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Hudson Valley NY Posts: 1,278	Re: Overhead And Profit We shoot for a 55% GP after direct job costs __________________ Just Exterios Plus. www.justexteriors.com http://www.facebook.com/JustExteriorsPlus Vinyl replacement windows New York, Fiberglass replacement windows New York, Fiberglass siding New York, Residential roofing New York

03-09-2010, 08:22 PM	#4
QRI View Profile QRI Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (61) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: General Contractor Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 61	Re: Overhead And Profit TI - Tenant Improvement Those changes, typically to office, retail, or industrial property, to accommodate specific needs of a tenant. TIs include installation or relocation of interior walls or partitions, carpeting or other floor covering, shelves, windows, toilets, etc __________________ Reno Remodeling Contractor Facebook

03-09-2010, 08:41 PM	#5
Ayerzee View Profile Ayerzee "Pro" Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (628) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity "Pro" Trade: Construction Engineering Student Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Malvern, OH Posts: 628	Re: Overhead And Profit I recommend reading this book: http://www.amazon.com/Markup-Profit-.../dp/1572180714 __________________ Dan

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03-09-2010, 08:47 PM	#6
HSConstruction View Profile HSConstruction Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (416) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Remodeler Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: NW NJ Posts: 416	Re: Overhead And Profit Regardless of what anyone says the % should be figure it out for yourself. What is the lowest amount you can do it for and still be profitable? What is the highest amount you think they will pay? Place your magic number in the middle and go get it. __________________ Kitchen and Bath Remodel Warren County NJ, Sussex County NJ, Morris County NJ

03-09-2010, 09:00 PM	#7
QRI View Profile QRI Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (61) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: General Contractor Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 61	Re: Overhead And Profit Thanks for the replies. Ayerzee - I will take a look at that book next time I am at the book store. HSConstruction - Thats kind of what I have been doing so far. I just started subing out my tile work. Sometimes I tack 5 - 10%, sometimes I don't make a dime off of his work. I am the only employee so I don't have a huge overhead. Sometimes I don't feel as if I am charging enough, other times I feel like I am charging too much. I was kind of hoping that there would be a general consensus. __________________ Reno Remodeling Contractor Facebook

03-09-2010, 09:44 PM	#9
CSinc. View Profile CSinc. Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (107) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Windows Roofing Siding Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Central IL Posts: 107	Re: Overhead And Profit i usually go 20 to 25% on material and then add in my costs and i still come out better than their previous or next bids.sometimes they ask how i can do it for less and not sacrifice quality.i tell all my potential clients that my bids are always so reasonable because my overhead is lower than the bigger companies because i dont sub out my work and i dont have project managers and salesman to feed. __________________ Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!

03-09-2010, 10:31 PM	#10
QRI View Profile QRI Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (61) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: General Contractor Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 61	Re: Overhead And Profit As a general rule I have been marking everything up 10%. After reading another thread it looks like I need to do an actual assessment of my overhead. I have been fearful that my proposals would be to expensive. There is a lot of competition here and most of it is unlicensed "handyman" types. I have been making what I believe to be decent profit, but I am probably short changing myself. __________________ Reno Remodeling Contractor Facebook

03-09-2010, 10:53 PM	#12
QRI View Profile QRI Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (61) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: General Contractor Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 61	Re: Overhead And Profit I am just thankful that there are resources like CT. I am doing the best that I can to set myself up for success. This place makes achieving that goal a little easier. __________________ Reno Remodeling Contractor Facebook

03-18-2010, 08:10 PM	#13
decksandfences View Profile decksandfences Trade: Decks and Fences Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (127) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Trade: Decks and Fences Trade: decks and fences Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Windsor Posts: 127	Re: Overhead And Profit agreed, just finished my financials of last yr and I have much to learn __________________ Deck Builder , Fence Contractor, Decks and Fences by Ryan 1361 Ouellette Avenue, Windsor, ON N8X 1J6 (519) 946-3042 Facebook

03-19-2010, 07:34 PM	#14
Michael Stone View Profile Michael Stone Markup and Profit Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (3) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Markup and Profit Trade: Construction Business Coach - Consultant & Author Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Camas, Washington Posts: 3	Re: Overhead And Profit Hey Gang: Read your posts and maybe there are some additional things to consider here. First question: Why are you in business? Are you in it just to keep a job or do you want to make some money, take care of your family? Do you want to provide for your lady in a manner that makes her happy and you proud? If you just want to keep a job, then by all means focus on being competitive and being the lowest "bid". That is an option everyone in construction has. Let's see, I give you the lowest price for your job and I win. Something is wrong with that picture my friends. You do have the option of participating in that game. The question is, to what end? On the other hand, if you focus your efforts on being profitable, then you will make good money and provide for your families. In doesn't make any difference where you live, and I can say that having customers in all 50 states, 8 Provinces of Canada and 16 other countries around the world. You can give your work away using a 10%, 15% or 20% markup and eventually end up going broke with more bills to pay than there is money in your checkbook. I get at least three companies a week calling for coaching help that have done just that. Or, you can polish up your sales skills, pick a better brand of client and go sell your work with a minimum markup of at least 1.50 times your job costs. That is what the pros in this business do every day and in your city or town. In both our books, Markup and Profit; A Contractors Guide and in the companion book Profitable Sales; A Contractor's Guide we talk about these issues in depth. We also take you through the math so there is no doubt about where your markup should be, what you should charge for your work, etc. I certainly don't want to come across as mean or nasty here, but I do believe in laying the cards on the table. Let's leave painting flowers around things to the artists of the world. You need to price your jobs to make good money. Your choice, your decision, your families.

03-19-2010, 07:49 PM	#15
QRI View Profile QRI Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (61) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: General Contractor Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 61	Re: Overhead And Profit Thanks for the input Michael. I want to be profitable, no question about it. I am in this for the long haul. This isn't a job, it's a career. I am ordering your book Markup and Profit; A Contractors Guide this weekend. I know that it won't answer all of my questions, but hopefully it will get me moving in the right direction. __________________ Reno Remodeling Contractor Facebook

03-20-2010, 01:28 AM	#18
KennMacMoragh View Profile KennMacMoragh Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,245) Photos (116) Reviews (1) Projects (0) Toolbox (1) View All Activity Pro Trade: Repair/Remodel Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 2,245	Re: Overhead And Profit I am reading it too, haven't gotten through much of it yet though.

03-21-2010, 06:58 PM	#19
KG007 View Profile KG007 Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (385) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Flooring & cabinetry Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lexington, KY Posts: 385	Re: Overhead And Profit As you are probably figuring out, everybody does something different. I will tell you from my years as a CPA working with clients, most people underprice their value. We have a tendency to figure cost and then add a profit margin to it. Understandable, but has no real basis in figuring the value of work. Think a heart suregon does that? Let's see, I'm going to have 1.75 hours in this, plus some subs from the hospital and other doctors. I think I ought to figure it at $30 an hour for me, because $50 an hour sounds high. And I'll add 10% to the other costs. Fat chance. They charge based more on the value of the work and the skill it takes. Think insurance rates are based on $30 an hur or something? Hell no, they are based on what going charges were at some point, then tried to negotiate doctors down. The amount charged for medical visits bears little relationship to costs. And doctors complain they can't make it on insurance reimbursements. What they mean is they can't make the living they feel they should be making on insurance rates that are chincy. And they are right. But if it wasn't for insurance, where few people actually pay their own bill, doctors wouldn't make nearly as much as they do. I don't begrudge it to them at all. They are highly trained and usually very dedicated. But they have an advantage of not having to say "your operation is $22,000. ... So you have a bid for it for $13,500?" Got any idea what the GM is on women's or men's clothing? It usually starts at 70-80%. Even on deep discount sales it is still usually 25-35%. Ever looked at the labor rate at a car dealership? Probably $85 to $125 per hour, minimum $50 if you pull it in. Why? Is a mechanic any more skilled than you? Think the mechanic is making $120/hour? NO, car dealers are better at computing what it takes to successfully maintain a dealership AND take home a really nice living if they have anywhere close to a decent volume of business. (And a car dealereship can lose money in a heartbeat if poorly run or business volume drops off like it has.) As a rule of thumb, if you aren't marking up materials and subs, and aren't making AT LEAST 20% GM, and more like 30% plus, you are on the way to either going broke or never making enough to justify being self-employed. And you still have got to get volume well above breakeven then. But we SHOULD be pricing based on what work is worth. Good luck.

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04-30-2010, 03:48 PM	#20
Home Builder View Profile Home Builder Registered User Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (1) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Registered User Trade: General Contractor Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Green Bay, WI Posts: 1	Re: Overhead And Profit OK. I can deifinately see what you are saying. However, in an economy like this and in a poor market, how do you survive with those kind of mark ups when your competition is "low balling" jobs just to stay busy. I realize you need to sell your service and quality and so forth, however, there are some people who are simply numbers people and that is all they look at. Getting a better clientle is a nice thought but much easier said than done. I just don't see how you can get many jobs with that kind of mark up. If I am doing an addition that has a material and sub cost of $60,000 there is no way in hell most people are going to pay me an additional $30,000 for that kind of job. It would be nice, but unlikely. We are lucky to make $30,000 on a $250,000 house.