Illegal Labor And No Permits

rbsremodeling

I had a thought for a section on my website to address the illegal/unlicensed labor and having work done without permits. I wanted to put an information page for homeowners letting them know the repercussions of hiring illegals or unlicensed contractors and having work done with out a permit. I went to tinners website and saw he touched on it slightly. I wonder if it would be worth the effort. I still got home owners who choose to go that route doing it anyway.

I really came into play yesterday on a house next to where I am doing a renovation project. I gave a lady an estimate for her deck and she said she could not afford it and i think she was being honest. Couple of months later couple of guys show up and started putting up the deck with no permits. I started to ask her if they got a permit but thought better of it. Last night I go check out my job next door to see how the punch out is going and the inspectors caught her job and put a Stop work order on it with a 2K fine. I actually feel bad for her. I honestly think she did not know she needed a permit.

There really needs to be a better system here to educate the home owners on what requires permits and the ability to check if a contractor is licensed. It is a really big issue. I know some homeowners want the lowest bid and they get what they get. But some homeowners are clueless and have nowhere to turn to get the right Info.

What do we do to Help them???

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tinner666

I tried to be informative, but I'm not a 'wordsman'. I read a lot here and at other sites, THen i put 'snippets' in a saved notepad. I reread them every now and then and try to make it coherent. If I come up with what I think will be 'logical, and concise, I add it to my site.
This could be a good thread you started for even more input.

I see some of what you saw next door and it nearly brings me to tears sometimes. These people can't afford to sometimes spend twice what they first put out to correct what was done to them. It's criminal.

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Frank Slate Roof Repairs, Richmond, Va.

kevjob

I tell everyone I see contact building dept.the willtell you what is involved and if permits are neccessary, some people will never learn though.

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Kevin
Basement Finishing Highlands Ranch Colorado
Littleton Colorado, Basement Remodeling
Kitchen Remodeling Denver

Grumpy

Yes, and it should be a part of your presentation.

Mr.s Home owner, we get all the necessary permits for you at no additional cost. We don't play games like some companies who say they get the permits and really don't or who who will get the permit then add a line item to your invoice. We have been doing this long enough that we know what you need a permit for and what you don't. Do you know what will happen if you hire a contractor withotu a permit?

Oh you are right! But not only will they make you stop the work, you can get fines, and all sorts of bad things can happen. The last thing you want is an inspector snopping around for other things, and I've spoken with these guys. They told me when they get a red flag they look for more!

besides, why would you want to hire someone who is afraid to get a permit? What do they have to hide? And if they are scamming the building department, they might just be scamming you too, since the building department does inspections TO PROTECT YOU!


There it is, there is your consumer education. Nobody leaves my presence without knowing the importance of licensing and permits. However I really want to start some kind of no profit where I go around and hold free seminars educating people on how to hire a contractor. It's funny how much people just don't know or refuse to acknoweldge in order to get a lower price.

Putty Truck

Any property owner knows about permits, unless they, the parents, and anyone in their family has never owned property or has lived in caves for their entire lives.

She got caught. HA HA!

Cole

I don't feel sorry for her one bit! If it was me and I lost the job to illegal labor, I would check to see if they pulled a permit and if they didn't, I would let the Building Department know about it. (anonymously) I think you are taking the wrong approach, if you feel sorry for her, did you give her other options to change the scope of the work and bring the price down? When I have a potential client tell me that my bid was too high for them at this time, I let them know that we are a reputable company and will be around when they can save more money to begin the project!

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Bone Saw

cant tell how many times I've been doing work and there is unpermitted work being done to an adjacent property to the one I'm working. I always make sure I'm extra loud and and obnoxiously close to and within earshot of the other outfit when phoning in my inspections

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thom

No, I don't feel sorry for her. I don't believe she didn't know about permits. She made a "cheap" decision and now she's gotta pay. Oh Well.

Regarding presentations and websites. How you say it has more to do with making the sale than what you say.

lf you are perceived as badmouthing the competition, you will be negatively perceived. Rather than being negative about the consequences of the unlicensed and unpermitted, be positive about the consequences of following the rules.

We (don't use I, it makes you look small) will provide you with a certificate of insurance, guaranteeing that you won't be held responsible for injuries suffered by workers on your job.

We will provide you with a copy of the permit, guaranteeing that your project will not be stopped and you will not be fined for not acquiring one.

We hire competent workers and withhold taxes as required so you won't be considered an employer by the irs and required to pay substantial taxes, penalties and interest.

We will provide a copy of our contractors license, which is required by the state and evidence that we are technically and financially qualified to do this job.

Tell the customer what you can do for them to protect them. Let them make the judgments about your competition.

rbsremodeling

I agree with everyones take thus far but there are some other root problems.

I am making no excuses for our Permitting office but they are slammed right now. We saw a construction boom that was unprecedented. They are understaffed and struggling. as a result it is sometimes hard for homeowners to get the info they need. The Permitting website also leaves alot to be desired and information is sometimes scarced and not clear. Trying to call or go in to clarification is as bad or worse because their swamped. I know we have good people at or Permit center but they can only do as much with what they have.

It is really hard for an HO to obtain info on what needs a permit and what does not. Secondly there is alot of stuff you can do with out a permit and that makes it even more confusing.

Now I will fault any HO who does not check licensing and I think that is a big problem. NO one seems to check on this I cannot wrap my mind around why no one physicallys wants to see your license and insurance. I have been doing work in DC 8 years and I think I have physically shown my license maybe 2 times to a HO in 8 years. I always have insurance certificates mailed to them but NO ONE CHECKS LICENSES.

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Cole

Well in that case, I think an information page on your website would be a good idea!

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Double-A

Posting that information or linking to a local AHJ website might be just the ticket.

Perhaps you need to be more assertive when you talk with your clients. Let them know that working legally is for the benefit of everyone involved, not just the local tax base.

We talk to our clients about permits as one of our qualifying questions. We ask if they realize that this will be a permitted job, and that inspections will be required before we can move forward. We also let them know that, at times, this inspection process may slow down progress, but that we feel its a necessary situation.

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"My clients’ wishes are the center of my attention." -- David Guido, a contractor in Woodstock, N.Y.
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RizzoMaryland

I am also in your area (maryland-montgomery county). I think it is wise to "educate" homeowners on everything from why it's necessary to use a licensed contractor to pulling permits. Im with you 100%. Our area has a huge influx of unlicensed contractors and illegal business being conducted. Look at it this way....These illegitimate contractors are driving the costs of improvements down and ultimately taking money out of your pocket!! Homeowners have all the leverage on this issue and need to be informed. The MHIC here in Maryland should start running advertisements/commercials to educate beyond what the licensed contractors do.

I also believe the licensing commission should incorporate an educational curriculum requirement before issuing licenses.

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kevjob

Hey Rory here in Denver we have a sheet that we can present from building dept stating what requires a permit which permit etc.. maybe work with them to come up with someting like this so you can give it them with the proposal.

Also here we can check licenses online at http://www.denvergov.com/tabid/37889...cense%20Search

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Kevin
Basement Finishing Highlands Ranch Colorado
Littleton Colorado, Basement Remodeling
Kitchen Remodeling Denver

rbsremodeling

Here is the last fly in the ointment.

Pulling a permit in DC is usually a lonnngggg process. Whole house remodels and additions which use to be my bread and butter are a 6-12 month process. kitchens baths and basements I have seen thouse take up to 6 months. Some HO's know this. This also know a company like mine won't touch it until a permit is issued and sometimes go with the other guys who are willing to try and by-pass the permit process. I had a customer I gave an estimate to over a year ago called me to let me know they got there permit last week. I pulled up there estimate it was 15 months ago!!!!!!

They as HO's get fustrated with the wait or cringe when you mention a permit and sometimes look elsewhere to avoid the permitting process.

So imagine your a HO husband you find out your wifes expecting a baby. YOU call me up I tell you 6-8 for the addition and by the way another 6-12 months for the permit so your baby's born before I start your Job.

My goal was to stretch out to MD and VA next year to widen my potential customer base and test the water's. The permitting process in those area's are a lot easier too

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L. B. Condulet

The only reason this thread is here in the first place is because our industry is no longer being policed. Oh sure, there's various token agencies with impressive sounding names but let's face it guys, total anarchy reigns.

Our government has allowed the illegal / bootleg contractor population to flourish and now they outnumber the legitimate contractors 10 to 1.

So as a last ditch and desperate effort to remain in business, we now find it necessary to attempt to educate our customers and warn them about the illegal hacks. The customer will nod and make the appropriate sounds but they view your warnings as just a device to justify your outrageous prices.

Any clown can do home improvements, if you doubt this, just turn on the TV and see the plethora of shows where ordinary housewives pull off amazing renovations and never encounter a problem. Contractors always seem to encounter problems, which is further proof of their incompetence.

So the home owner knows that this is a job for knuckle draggers, and she's already received estimates from knuckle draggers and here you stroll in and attempt to upsell the job so that you can live well at her expense.

The unlicensed - unskilled - illegal hacks are here in large numbers because the government abdicated their responsibilities and the general population loves them. They love them because they reinforce their stereotype of what a filthy contractor is supposed to look like.

Personally I think that the low end residential has been ceded to hacks. You can't compete with the hacks on price and quality is not in the equation since home owners believe that the hacks will do a quality job. The home owner is actually emotionally invested in the hack, they love the low price so they convince themselves that quality "will just happen". Tread carefully if you attempt to question this self delusion, because the home owner will take it as a personal affront to their judgment skills.

Construction has changed a lot in the last 20 years. And not for the better.

rbsremodeling

Kevin

Thanks, that looks like a real good start for what I had in mind. appreciate the input.

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kevjob

When I explain the licenses and permits some roll their eyes etc. We just pass to the next job.

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Kevin
Basement Finishing Highlands Ranch Colorado
Littleton Colorado, Basement Remodeling
Kitchen Remodeling Denver

Grumpy

I am all for regulation and permitting of our collective construction & remodeling industries. Amen! We need it. I just wish that regulation were more enforced like in FL, where is is a FELONY to roof without a roofing license. Now FL takes it a little far with the number of required inspections, making it difficult to work, but I think overall many states can learn from their approach.

One other thing, for some reason this thread got lumped into "illegals" and no permits. I know hack scum bags who were born here and cut more corners than the guys who arrived here through less than legal means.

rbsremodeling

When I posted Illegals i was refering to guys who perform illegal construction. Or unlicensed contractors. I really wasn't refering to illegal workers who do construction. I agree grumpy I have seen work by licensed contractors work that I would not subject my enemies to.

I am so fustrated by this topic. I really want to educate homeowners on it. But is it my job?? Our permitting board DCRA is swamped an unfortunately it is to the point where i feel I/we have to make it our priority.

I see so many homeowners after they let some hack butcher their projects and they always say look what the contractor did.

My response is always no look what that unlicensed bastard did. He was not a contractor. They lump us all in the same catergory, licensed and unlicensed and call us all contractors. That is how contractors also get a bad name because of all the hacks that **** it up for the real contractors

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ultimatetouch

They should out source some of the work. A town by us contracts with a company to do some of there inspections, and plan reviews when they get swamped. Those time lines are rediculous, although we have been waiting six months for a front porch addition in the town I am from.

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Ultimatetouch
Illinois Remodeling Company, Kitchen Remodeling Chicago, Room Additions Illinois