How Much Detailed Information Do We Give To Our Prospects?

dougchips

My quess is he would tell them to go with a company that sells slate or the metal roofing so they don't create more mountains(landfills). I better hit the sack before I begin to post the JC endorses my company and products.

Here's a thought, lets say that you are doing work for someone from your church do you line item 10% for the church?

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PressurePros

Ed,

Why all the discounts? Because he was a contractor?

The moment you started reducing your price you sold your soul. Instead of what should have come across (which was a hassle free job performed with professionalism) you started seling on price. You yourself have mentioned many times this is not the area in which you compete. We are not the lowest guys, when we sell on price we lose every time.

My feeling is you opened Pandora's Box and the devil stepped right in. Its possible that this guy's hot button was price but I'm sure being in the trades he has seen some nightmare roof jobs. Did he really want to get a short lived smile by saving some quick money? Would that smile still be on his face when he had to have the lower priced guy back again and again to make repairs? Would the grin turn ino a grimace when he now has to pay Ed to rip out and replace the whole thing? That's the value of which Doug is speaking.

An area you may look at is fine tuning the exploration part of your sale. One of my phone qualifiers is to ask if they plan on selling the property. Many people lack ethic and just want to "spruce up the deck". We don't do that kind of work. But I need to know up front if I am chasing a wild goose. If one of your qualifier questions was.. "How long would you like your roof to last before you have to replace it again?" or something similar.. you may be able to adjust your materials or get foresight into knowing this lead may not pan out. At the very least you'll know where to take your sale.

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Ken Fenner
Pressure Washing PA
Roof Cleaning Services PA

Mike Finley

Ed- what in the world?


Ed - it's pretty simple. Two salesman sat down at a table to discuss a roofing project and the better salesman was the one sitting across from you. (That's not an insult, it's just the way it was this time)

That's it.

I'm totally shocked why you were dropping your pants left and right for this guy when he was never committed to you.

Like I've said, the words coming out of their mouth really mean pretty much nothing. It's how they are coming out, when, how they are saying it, how they are interacting between each other, how he is reacting to you.

All that stuff about how impressed he was and how he was so responsive to how you were doing your presentation - - Meaningless.
Pure meaningless fluff.

The substance was what did he really have going on in his head while selling you all that time? A prospect must be following an exact path of reactions to your presentation to indicate they are going down the road to the sale. They can say any old crap they want along the way, flattery, talking about the weather, asking questions...

But after all this time you know the proper responses on the road to the sale. This guy was certainly deviating from them all along the way. Look back on it and think about it, all that shingle stuff and all the other crap, he was never sold on you, never.

There is no need to beat yourself up over this, you're crying over spilled milk when nobody even had a glass of milk at the table! A presentation is a presentation. Going from step A to step Z in a presentation is just going from step A to step Z, it doesn't guarantee you or make you deserve someones business.

I don't see what the big issue with this scenario is. I think you believe you had more then you had with this guy.

POOLMANinCT

ed, I appreaciate the efforts you put into presentations, from both installer reality & customer perspectives. I am concerned about your closing ratio lately. Granted I just read your posts, but the first thing that came to mind about your dilemma. Is Ed trying to adapt to many closing "tools" and is concentration being distracted by his "new closing tools." Perhaps you should reflect on some of your blockbuster, sales runs.. & get back to "ed the roofers' brass tacks" ie the sales tools that made you Ed the Roofer.
perhaps the "journey is distracting you from the destination." get in touch with old school Ed for this weeks bidding... clear mind & clear sales!!!
good luck ed, routing for ya!!!!

ray

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......Less with the jaw & More with the paw.....

Ed the Roofer

Yes,

That is exactly what I am going to do, Ray.

I think I possibly went overboard lately. (Who Me!!!)

One of the remaining flaws, but at least I am cognizant about it and not too proud to take action or ask help regarding it.

I left my house to come back to the office right now, just to pick up the exact details of the proposal, and if any of you guys would like, I will e-mail it to you when I get back home for your constructive criticism.

If not, then I will post a narrative regarding the quoted base prices and the discounts I offered, so you have a complete understanding of my errors, ommissions, or excessive overabundance of minutae and details.

Ed

POOLMANinCT

I've got a lot of running around to do, and I'm no roofer. which may be a plus, for fresh eyes... to be honest I probably won't get a chance to examine it or feedback tonight. (going to parents for dinner)

somehow your email got in my pda, so I think you have my personal email... shoot it to me... & if I can dig it up ill send you the contract that sold my roof...

I'm glad you realized you may have bee hyper focussing on "sales tool" its easy to do since we are constantly "throwing our tricks & tweaks" at each other...
I'm sure "old school ed is going to rock the house this week"

ray

__________________
......Less with the jaw & More with the paw.....

POOLMANinCT

btw ed, if you pm your mailing address I will send you my one of my liner replacement bid packages. same kit I leave with prospects.

I figure liner replacement is the best parallel service I offer to roof replacement. it short sweet & effective. it used to take a "pool degree" to understand it if I wasn't sitting with owner. I scrapped anything technical & went for this is what I use to fix your pool & you pay ***.

ray

plus I'd value your opinion on the kit.

__________________
......Less with the jaw & More with the paw.....

Ed the Roofer

Okay,

I probably deviated from value to price as you all can observe so much more acutely from your observations.

I didn't drop down the original price of the base quote in the main scope of work.

I did not drop down the price from the first 1,540 square feet of plywood deck sheathing replacement, which always tends to be extermely profitable on a walkable pitch roof without many obstructions.
I also mistakenly previously stated that I removed my commission from the quoted price during the discount discussion, but I did not do that actually. That amount is $ 538.00 + 10 % of each of the upgrade price increases.

Here is the way I price plywood decking replacement as a standardized formula.

Total square footage of the entire job, including waste factor, starter shingles, and ridge cap shingle, and not just the measured field area, is 2,900 square feet.The actual true measured field area is 2,440 square feet with 2 valleys and with 3 ridge lines.

The first 25 % of that 2,900 square feet is priced at $ 2.00 per square foot, which comes out to $ 64.00 per sheet. So, 725 square feet X $ 2.00/sq ft = $ 1,450.00

Any decking replacement above the 25 % of the total automatically gets discounted down to $ 1.50 per square foot, which is $ 48.00 per sheet. I have found that when replacing just smaller areas, it takes much much more time, hence the rationale for the dual tiered pricing categories.

So, I knew for sure that 1,540 square feet were needed to be included, and 725 sq ft are already at the premium price level, which means that 815 additional square feet were priced out at the $ 1.50 per square foot mark, so add $ 1,222.50. Total of the entire rear deck replacement was $ 1,450.00 + $ 1,222.00 = $ 2,672.00 rounded off.

IF, the remainder of the decking, and it felt good upon a walk over inspection, needed to be replaced, then that remaining 1,360 square feet would have been priced at the $ 1.50 per square foot level per the contract and that is the portion I discounted by 50 %, so only about the last 42 1/2 sheets were discounted down to .75 cents per square foot. This portion would have dropped from an additional charge of $ 2,040.00 to $ 1,020.00. It was an either/or discount, as in, if that plywood did not require replacement at all, then he would get a $500.00 discount for an immediate decision to agree.

So, at that point, since he insisted on going to his mother-in-laws home to determine the shingle and gutter colors suggested and their viable appearance levels, where the only rationale I succumbed to to allow the discount period to be until Saturday, instead of it being withdrawn after our Thursday evening appointment.

4 levels of quality options quoted:

2 layer roof tear-off on an existing 5/12 easily walkable pitched roof.

A) 30 year 3-tab $ 7,890.00
B) 30 yr Arch $ 8,325.00
C) 50 yr Arch $ 9,340.00
D) Speacialty Premium Arch $ 11,225.00

None of these include the previous plywood prices discussed.

Also included in each quote, were:
221 lineal feet of Grace Ice and Water Shield, $ 450.00
160 feet of gutter apron drip edge flashing, $ 160.00
170 feet of ODE, gable edge drip edge flashing, $ 170.00
84 feet of Shingle Vent II, Ridge Vent, $ 672.00
One soil stack pipe boot flashing, $ 40.00
One electrical service post pipe boot flashing, $ 40.00
One bathroom damper exhaust vent, $ 40.00
Dump Truck and all dump fees, $ 600.00
Permit acquisition, $ 60.00
These subtotals are not listed and are all clumped in to the entire base price quotes for the 4 seperate options listed already.

One option listed for Continuous Eave Edge Intake Ventilation using Smart Vent, $ 464.00 for rear where all the bad wood was and $ 504.00 for entire front eave edge where the wood was in moderate but solid and stable condition.

He was looking at option B), for $ 8,325.00 + required decking of $ 2,672.00 = $ 10,997.00

That is the full version of prices and lets see what you guys can say about it and the way I approached the discount and the time period extended for it to be good for.

If anyone wants the entire roof proposal script, PM to me with your actual e-mail address.

Ed

PressurePros

Ed, I cannot decipher what you wrote as I honestly don't have you in front of me explaining the benefits of each breakdown you listed. That's not important though..

Tying in to the title of your thread.. It is entirely possible to give all the details, do all the educating and then mistakenly let a better closer come in and make an easy sale. I find it hard to believe that the relationship and trust you spoke of would have been abandoned merely for a lower price. All any of us can do is speculate as to why you lost this bid. What this guy told you and what you iterated in your posts would lead me to believe that at the very least he would have come back to you and allowed you to make a counter offer.

If you have ever listened to Phil Rhea he talks about a surgeon that has an outstanding reputation and credentials losing a patient (the sale) because he did not close. He (the doctor) educated the patient and let her walk to get another opinion and then another doctor made the close.. "Mrs Johnson, I agree with Dr Milquetoast's assessment. You should get this surgery right away. Let's get this problem taken care of before it becomes a bigger threat to your health. We can do the surgery at Hanneman or Jefferson. At which hospital would you feel more comfortable? My receptionist Jennifer can set up everything for you before you leave the office"

You let this guy stall you. He didn't trust you well enough to sign. You wrote:
So, at that point, since he insisted on going to his mother-in-laws home to determine the shingle and gutter colors suggested and their viable appearance levels, where the only rationale I succumbed to to allow the discount period to be until Saturday, instead of it being withdrawn after our Thursday evening appointment.

How was he going to do that? That's like determining how a room will look painted merely by looking at a 1"x1" color sample. Viable appearance levels? He's a frikkin plumber right? Now he's an exterior design expert? C'mon. One minute he needs to determine viability of color the next moment he tells you he doesn't need the high quality work because the old lady is moving or is gonna croak soon. That makes no sense whatsoever.

PS: This is an excellent thread. It shows me that no matter how technical you think someone may like something they are still going to base their decision on trust, whether or not they like you, and how capable they perceive you as fulfilling their needs.

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Ken Fenner
Pressure Washing PA
Roof Cleaning Services PA

Ed the Roofer

Ken,

I agree. Regardless, (or is it irregardless?), of this particular customer, I think the entire premise of the thread is very eye-opening.

I don't consider myself a super-salesman or super closer, but more of the primo-consumer educator about everything that they should have known, but without trying to get too technical.

For the more technical aspects, I provide a quantity of fittingly appropriate product brochures, which they can go through for more detailed information which I had already spoken and written about.

Even though I do not consider myself to be the closer salesman, my previous close ratios hovered around 52 %, but so far this year, it's about 10 %. Yes, I mostly cherry picked the leads, which go in preferential sequence from an individual referral, to a current job sign, to a branding awareness and saturation from previous multiple job sign visibility, to the envelope pak flyers, to the yellow pages, to the internet yellow pages, pretty much in that order if the leads come flooding in too fast all at once.

It's driving me nuts!!!

Ed

Mike Finley

Like I said, giving a presentation or as you put it being a primo-consumer educator through your sales presentation doesn't guarantee or make you deserve the sale. Those techniques work on a certain segment of consumers who are receptive to what you are doing. As long as you keep your prospects narrowly targeted to the type of people that are receptive to that technique you should have the same success.

Perhaps you've some how changed your customers demographic and you are facing a different consumer now and finding what worked in the past for the type of customers you mostly faced is now not working on the new mix of customers you have in front of you?

Ed the Roofer

Interesting point about the potential of the customer demographics being changed. Since this was a YP lead and not one of my cherry picked referrals which always produce higher winning results.

I may have misinterpreded his reasoning for not going with my company, as we did not get into an extensive discussion over the follow up phone call as to why I lost the opportunity to be the contractor selected to do the job. He did not specifically make the actual statement that Ken quoted in his most recent post. That is what I felt he was alluding to, and I should not presume any actual or implied insinuation probably. That is just what I felt his excuse was that he was offering to me, besides the other contractor coming in at a substantially lower price.

Per Pressure Pro's; Quote:
"One minute he needs to determine viability of color the next moment he tells you he doesn't need the high quality work because the old lady is moving or is gonna croak soon. That makes no sense whatsoever."
End Quote:

Would any of you think it would be worthwhile to attempt to meet with this contractor/homeowner or have a further follow up phone call to get his true and honest appraisal and opinion on how he went about making his decision,businessman to businessman, or do you think it all comes down to not establishing enough value, so he made his decision soley on price?

Ed

Ed the Roofer

By the way, for any casual lurkers, I am not trying to beat the proverbial dead horse into the ground and recesitate (sp) a lost job.

I am attempting to pursue a keener understanding on my short-comings of feeling I had a job ready to close, but erred in my impression. I want to take any advice offered to improve on actual closing a sale like this versus allowing it to go on standby and then losing it to a better closer or even just to a lowewr price.

Ed

Skydawggy

To be honest with you Ed, I think you are beating yourself up way too much over this guy. I think the lesson learned is that you can't be everything to every one. There are people out there who's only interest is to get shingles on their roof or a window in the hole and the only motivating factor is how cheaply they can get it done. I think in this case this is true.

Ask yourself what your motivations would be to put the best quality tires on your truck if your intention was to sell it in a few months. I doubt you'd be too concerned with the road hazzard warranty, 100,000 mile wear warranty, lifetime rotation and balancing, handling characteristics etc.

Most of the leads I run are cold call telemarketing and even though I close a pretty respectable number of them on the first visit, I recognize I can't sell everyone. I take whatever lessons I can from each lead if there's on to be had and move on to the next.

Ed the Roofer

Okay,

Another week, another dollar.

I just got back from a different proposal specification drop off.

It feels good to get a one call close again.

26 square, 10/12 pitch, 1,650 square feet of plywood overlay on existing skip sheathing, 2 layer asphalt plus one layer cedar shingle tear-off, 135 ft of I & W shield, 460 feet of gutter apron and ODE drip edge flashings, 40 feet of Shingle Vent II Ridge Vent, and the 3rd level option for the 50 year architectural shingles.

Both homeowners are 82 and 84 years old and wanted quality assured for the rest of their lives and who ever inherits the home.

Total cost: $ 16,084.00

Thats nice, but I still want to explore the causation and alternative reasoning that might have immediately secured the first job I was writing about.

Ed

POOLMANinCT

ed, barring this particular prospect... I found you "package" to be excetionally pessimistic. in fact playing "johny homeowner" I no longer trust roofers... is this guy ed trying to intimidate me?

ed present in an optimistic light... ditch the 10 ways contractors can bone you. replace it with an "open letter from ed & his boys" refer to your crew & praise your guys knowledge & diligence....
johny homeowner senses ed the roofer doesn't even trust roofers...

as far as the plumbing contractor, F him - he pimped you for insight & used you as a benchmark.

I do like the fact you use a dump instead of a rolloff... cleary we understanf the fiscal logic... but that leaves the impression "this guy ed is protecting out property" now nobody wants a new roof, but we buy them to protect our property. I like this angle...

I felt package conveyed doom & gloom.... express the same tech/diligence optimisticaly.. get them psyched they hired that guy "ED the roofer & his boys!!!"

ray

__________________
......Less with the jaw & More with the paw.....

Gordo

Ed. You may be trying to hard. Go get a massage....and take it from there.

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Looks like some pros were here.

Remodelers

Ed,

The first rule of sales is don't take it personally. What worked before may or may not work now. I too have spent mucho time with potential clients to get the business. My success rate was extremely high(over 90%) or I was just too damn cheap!? Anyway, my advice is to Farm, Farm, Farm...and be a good farmer. Don't waste your time and don't take it personally.

There is no doubt folks are shopping more now for deals now. It does depend upon your local. Some market are doing well, some are struggling. It's a bell shaped curve.

I recently called my last bid three times and got brushed off. A year ago, I would do my due diligence and "price plan" with the potential customer. I didn't need to call back, back then. I listened to this last customer, left him alone, and ultimately got the bid. Maybe I'm too damn cheap, but don't think so...My prices haven't changed. You must sell your added value above the competition. Enuff said

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