You Get What You Pay For?

john elliott

You get what you pay for?

I read this saying time and time again, especially on US forums, and most especially from contractors and other small businesses who seek to explain why they lose work to people they describe as ‘lowballers’

This attitude seems to go hand in hand with the attitude that just because a particular product or service is cheaper than another similar one, that the cheaper one will automatically be of lower quality

The thing is, it just isn’t true. Anyone of us could think of many examples of times where we have been offered the same product or service at different prices, some higher and some lower, and our customers are just the same. Why should we expect them to assume that a more expensive offering is better. When any of the conscientious and skilled guys here lands a job, quite likely with a bid that was not the lowest, do they believe that the bids that were even higher than theirs were from people who were going to do an even better job than they were?

Maybe this phrase should be changed to “you don’t get more than you pay for, but you may well get less”

John

Brickie

John,

In my case the "lowballers" are Illegals from Eastern Europe or Mexico. They work for cash, don't pay taxes, don't have insurance, etc., & "compete" against legit contractors.

__________________
“Ron Paul is one of the outstanding leaders fighting for a stronger national defense. As a former Air Force officer, he knows well the needs of our armed forces, and he always puts them first. We need to keep him fighting for our country.” – Ronald Reagan

mdshunk

It is true that the cheaper price can sometimes be of the same quality as the more expensive price. Historically, this is most often not the case. In a country like the US, where almost anyone can hang out a shingle and write on the side of the family mini-van "General Kontractor", there are lots of "lowballers" who (for the most part) do substandard work.

Mind you, we're not talking about a "cheaper" price. We're talking about an absurdly below market price. I know that if I put work out to bid with 3 legitimate contractors, one of them will have the lowest price. Now... if I put my work out to bid to 10 random contractors, 8 of them will be within a certain amount of each other, and two will be insanely low. These are the lowballers, and I'm 100% certain that they'll be doing poor work.

Double-A

As I was reading this, I was reminded of something that happened today. I was called by an old friend that needed a plumbing specialty tool. I offered to bring it over.

When I got there, he was working on a small bath remodel job and was trimming the tub and setting out the pedestal lav and WC.

I noticed the WC was off the wall a bit, and that the lavatory drain was all PCV with no escutcheon to the wall. In addition, I noticed that when the lavatory was up against the wall, the tile seemed to running down hill from the left to the right behind the faucet area.

When I asked him about these things, he grabbed a level and then said ya, the tile was out of level because the floor was out of level. His base cove tiles were set to run with the floor and he used spacers all the way up, just transferring the problem right up the wall.

I asked why he didn't just adjust the first few rows of tile to correct the level problem as he came up the wall, by opening the grout joints a small amount each course. He sorta got mad at me and said he always just followed the floor and that he'd only done jobs like this about 500 times.

As for the toilet, he said the old one was a 14" rough-in, and he replaced with a 12" rough-in, but had to pull it to install an offset flange to move it closer to the wall to allow the door to close. It was hitting the bowl otherwise.

Again I asked why he didn't just move the closet riser in the crawl space instead of using an offset flange. This was going to be rental property, and the landlord was gonna have to be over there much too often with a plunger or think his renters full of crap because of the offset flange. They tend to clog easily.

Again, he said he had done this several times and he knew what he was doing. I reminded him that it was my tool he was using because I've actually plumbed for a living. "Don't spit on my boots and tell me its raining, Steve. I've seen the back side of the barn once or twice."

He conceded that he probably could have done it differently and probably should have in hindsight.

He then said that he was sure I had allowed the same type of work on my jobs. I assured him that once the tile problem was discovered, it would have come off the wall and the flange would have been moved, at our expense. The floor out of level and the 14" rough-in were not "hidden" or "discovered" problems. They were there from the start and should have been addressed from the start. "You can take off your undershirt and polish that turd all you want to, Steve, but when you're done, all you'll have is a shiny turd and a crappy undershirt to show for it."

Now, having said all that, I agree that perhaps its a not a great little pearl of wisdom, and yes, you can get something for less money, but, I always think of it this way. You can shop for quality, service or price. You can usually get two of the three from the same vendor, but almost never will get all three from the same vendor. In this case, the client was getting great service and a great price. I'm afraid that when it comes to plumbing and bathrooms however, its always better to shop for quality.

So, I guess I'd say instead of saying "you get what you pay for", I'd prefer "Quality doesn't cost, it pays."

In this case, everyone would have benifited from a higher quality job, even if it did cost a couple of hundred bucks more.

__________________
"My clients’ wishes are the center of my attention." -- David Guido, a contractor in Woodstock, N.Y.
New York Times, July 20, 2006

Mike Finley

If another contractors price is cheaper than ours then I would be confident that his work is not going to be as detailed or as high quality as ours and he won't be offering the same quality of customer service.

If another contractors work is as detailed and high quality as ours and they offer the same level of high quality customer service and their price is lower than ours. Then I'm confident they are better craftsman then business men.

K2

Generally I agree with the above posts except when it comes to specializing in certain areas.

If I was looking for a bid on 1 mllion chocolate chip cookies and got a bid from a full service reastaurant, a full service bakery, and a company that specialized in Chocolate Chip Cookies, I would expect that CCC would smoke the competition and give me a better product.

We used bid Fire Damage jobs for a while but always got beat by a company that only did fire damage. smoked every time

I work part time for a company that does about 5 million a year in just lights. You get the jist.

Gordo

You ain't from around here are you boy?

Been in the service business for years in one shape or form. People in my neck of the woods want high quality service (i.e. answer phone, return messages, communicate in educated manner). There is a price to that.

I hear more complaints about 'the other contractor' who failed to recognise the clients need for service (i.e. contractor did not care about anything but get'er done).

Remember, Mercedes costs more than Hundai for a reason.

__________________
Looks like some pros were here.

Tscarborough

I prefer to state it like this:

You get what you agree to pay for.

That doesn't mean that a low price is always bad, but paying less for equal quality usually involves a lot more effort on the part of the person paying. Sadly, that is not how it usually works, and you really do get what you pay for when price is your only criteria.

lxdollarsxl

I would think that if you looked at Mr elliotts website you will see quality.

__________________
Damned if im gonna do it more than once.

dirt diggler

THANKYOU

dirt diggler

the smileys above don't reflect any emotion of mine right now --- I just thought it would be cool to throw them in there --- especially the one shootin

anyways ...

it's not so much the 2/10 idiots that go insanely low --- they can't last long anyways --- and it may lead to either being called to FINISH their job, or repair it in 5 years.

hmmm ... I don't even feel like writing this --- I've started several threads about this anyways

wackman

John,

I bid a large deck recently for a customer who was a referral.

This was a pretty crazy deck and would have been a blast to build.

It was 2 stories, about 1500 sqft, with all the edges waved, curved handrails all around, a firemans pole to go from the private upper floor deck (that way no one could come up, only down), a stairwell, a turret in one corner with the fully rounded handrail, a built in fire pit, built in hot tub with very custom stairs all around, the list goes on.

This would have taken some serious skill to build all the curved woodwork, strengthening/tensioning the handrails and tricky low number of posts framing.

Well I got a call from the friend who referred them and he asked me why I didn't want to do the job. I said I did, I had given them a very competitive bid. Seems that someone had given them a bid, that they took, for less then I can even buy the materials for and I get the best discount the big local lumber company can give, even better than HD or lowes prices.

Either the contractor has no clue what he's doing or if he actually has the skill to do this project then he's a MORON as a businessman.

Either way I doubt they'll be happy with the outcome even though they definitely will get what they paid for.

Wack

john elliott

And if another contractor's price is MORE expensive than yours? Does that mean that they are going to do a better job?

John

john elliott

I know that, that's why I have a Mercedes van. But if I'd bought that van from a Mercedes dealer, or from a specialist van supplier, and the price had been different (which it would have been) would that have meant that the more expensive reseller was providing a better van?

The point I'm trying to make that just paying more doesn't necessarily mean that you are getting more

John

wackman

I know what you're saying John. I have a guy who does all the yard work on my properties, at least the ones in his very small area. On a 5000 sqft lot he will mow the grass, edge, weed whack in between bushes, haul away the grass cuttings, even pick up the dog sh!t before he mows and his charge is...... $15. His price I swear!
He loves me because I can't allow myself to give him less than $20 so I tell him it's a tip. It takes him around 2 hours. He's about 70 years old, pushes his mower, gas can, wheel barrow and all his yard tools from job to job (he has no vehicle). He does a great job and is always there when he says he will be.

You definely can get great deals, it's just very rare.

Wack

Double-A

Careful John, you're not just buying a van in this situation. You must consider that one is a specialist. Does his advice and experience count for nothing?

What added value are they bringing to the table along with the product? Sometimes this is hard to say, but to say that one reseller is better than another based solely on price is silly, but no sillier than saying that two resellers that charge the same price are equal.

You must weigh each situation.

Now as to your original assertion that we shouldn't expect our client's to assume that one service provider is better than another based solely on price, I'll ask you this; Are we comparing apples to apples, or apples to imitation apple-flavored sauce?

By the way, service is service and not a retail product. One can not deliver an installed cabinet suite via Federal Express.

As for your statement of "you don’t get more than you pay for, but you may well get less", I agree. That is the crux of the matter. Most clients have been conditioned to expect less from tradesmen and contractors. Promise and deliver exactly what you've promised, charge what you deserve for your work, and everyone should be happy.

__________________
"My clients’ wishes are the center of my attention." -- David Guido, a contractor in Woodstock, N.Y.
New York Times, July 20, 2006

dirt diggler

Ok ... he's 70 ... he is still working (hard evidently) ... and he doesn't even have a truck


I WONDER WHY


$15

I mean it doesn't even sound honorable. He's cheating himself --

heck, now he's even takin away work from the $30 idiot weekend warrior witha zero turn whos lowballin everybody else!!!


"Honest days work" does not mean working your tail off for peanuts --- but I think some people think that it does

wackman

Exactly.

When he first approached me and told me his price I was stunned, to say the least. I told him he should charge more and asked why were his rates so low. He said that's all he needs to make in order to live, and an honest days work for an honest days pay.

O..k....

Brickie

I partially agree with your statement. Your statement has more validity when you are comparing apples to apples, not apples to carrots.

For example: PLA's aside, A Union Contractor will charge more for the same work than a Non-Union Contractor. This is where your statement "just paying more doesn't necessarily mean that you are getting more" applies.

Where your statement doesn't work is as I stated before:

the "lowballers" are Illegals from Eastern Europe or Mexico. They work for cash, don't pay taxes, don't have insurance, etc., & "compete" against legit (Union or Non-Union) contractors

Mike

__________________
“Ron Paul is one of the outstanding leaders fighting for a stronger national defense. As a former Air Force officer, he knows well the needs of our armed forces, and he always puts them first. We need to keep him fighting for our country.” – Ronald Reagan

eastend

John: agreed that just paying more doesn't always mean getting something better.
If you're dealing with a commodity, that is basically the same anywhere, then whoever has the lowest price on, say, a pound of wheat. is probably the best deal ( provided the delivery/ acquistition/sale is comparable.)

If you're talking about a custom service, with lots of value-added, then you really must be sure you are comparing "apples to apples" ( and macintosh to macintosh, not red delicioous)

If you can actually compare one to the other directly, then yes, the higher price just might mean that one company owner wants a bigger yacht.
So, I'd say there is a general correlation between pricing and quality, but you really need to get to specifics to compare value.