Workmanship Part 2

NickofTime

Okay, so here's the story behind my original post.

It started off where I was hired to renovate the entire basement. I had my electrician and plumber come in and price the job. Now, there were extras. He wanted a fireplace installed and extra plugs so my plumber/gas fitter's price changed as did the electrician's price. The customer wasn't happy with either price change so he hired his own electrician (who was his neighbour and did it for free) and hired a plumber for 1/2 the price. Now the story gets better.

With my guys we would have finished the basement between 4-5 weeks.

With his guys, it took 3 weeks for the plumber and 2 weeks for the electrician.

The 3 weeks it took for the plumber to complete the work consisted of: 2 weeks the plumbers were actually there and butchered the work until the customer kicked them out and the 1 week it took me to repair all of their work.

Because of the time delay that he caused, I couldn't finish the job as I had other committments I needed to tend to. This is the first job I was not able to finish and had to walk away from. I told the customer I would be happy to come back after I finished my committment. He wanted a new price for all the remaining work plus some extras. I gave him the new price and he said it was too much and so I walked away from the rest of the job.

So, he decided he wouldn't pay me for all the work and extras I had already done. He then decided he would get someone else to come in and finish the work.

We are now facing a court date which is tomorrow, Monday the 16th, and part of his reason for not paying me the balance is that he had to get some of the work I did re-done.

My question was, because now I'm 2nd guessing myself, from the pictures I posted earlier, do you feel that the work shown in those pictures was of good workmanship.

Go easy on me but any suggestions/input is greatly appreciated.

Attached Thumbnails

     

Gordo

Its hard to tell from the pictures.

Did you permit the job?

Inspections pass?

Most important.....do you have a signed contract?

If the answer is yes to all the above, you have nothing to worry about! Present the facts to the judge (wear nice clothes), and hopefully the HO will get hammered with a judgement to pay.

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mdshunk

If he had to have some stuff changed or re-done, it's probably because he changed his mind about some stuff. Good thing you have pictures! Best of luck tomorrow. Be the best dressed person in the room.

bill r

Nick, I've just been through 2 years in court on a similar non-payment thing. If ya wanna chat...pm

JMGP

You have to remember too... its not a "finished" product... it is still in its "rough-in" stages... and because he didnt want you to finish it you were not able to satisfy his concerns or even go over them right??...

by the sounds of it you were not aware of any concerns he had until after the fact...?? you gave him options.. you tried to work with him... you did your part... hopefully you had a good contract... that had a clause where you are not responsible for other trades or the home owner delaying the project.. or something along those lines...

I wouldnt even sweat it... I think he is just going to make a fool of himself in court tomorrow...

Bottom line.. you have good pictures and you at least need to be paid for work up to that point....

Mike Finley

You're in the middle of a tornado of a cluster ***** now. Nothing you can do but ride it out and do damage control.

It's like being in a car that just went over the edge of the cliff and freezing everything and now asking what can I do to avoid the impact that is coming?

Like that car, the best thing you can do is avoid the situation in the first place. Anytime you let a customer start controlling the job site you are basically going for a ride in the passenger seat of a run-away car and it's just going to be dumb luck if you get out unscathed, and the more you let it happen the better the odds you are going off a cliff sooner or later.

Put a pillow over your head and peak out after it's all over and hope you still have your arms and legs.

See what you can learn from this car wreck you are in and figure out how never to ever let your job get out of your control like this one did.

The way you might have handled this differently was when he squawked was to say "I will get another estimate from another plumber and electrician for you." not let him take control with his own electrician and plumber. If you are GCing the project you are GCing the project, simple as that, all the subs need to go through you always. There is no other way to control your schedule if you don't control the subs.

mdshunk

I see lots of wall spaces in the pics in both threads that would have been required to have a receptacle. Was there an electrical ruff inspection? The electrical work that's ruffed in appears to be neatly done, but just not enough of it.

KentWhitten

Oh man, does this bring back memories. I'm sorry about your mess that you're in. Legal stuff is really bad for everyone.

The one statement he said about having someone come in to fix your stuff is the hinge to me. Some things that were mutually agreed upon by both parties (you giving a price and he saying no)

Stress one thing tomorrow. You never had the chance to come fix any problems that may have occurred. I hope that's a true statement. If it is, then you might be awarded your amount on work that you did. On his end, to get money out of you, he better have well documented items as to why. Anything that is used by him from any other subs will have to be from a deposition if I'm not mistaken. Otherwise, it's your word against his.

Show your pictures. The cleanliness of your job alone is worth a point or two in conscientiousness. It might be just a little edge in your favor.

You never mentioned anything about lawyers for either side, who is actually suing who, have you already gone to arbitration?

Or is this small claims court?

Be polite! Don't raise your voice, if the judge is getting perturbed, keep your mouth shut, say "yes, your honour", wear decent clothing, like a contractor would, not really a suit, but a tie would help, shave, deodorant, clean your fingernails, arrive well beforehand, don't interrupt, answer only facts

If he has a lawyer and you don't, be calm, he will just try to rattle you.

Like I said before, repeat over and over, you never had any chance to fix anything, or that you were told of any problems.

Maybe your biggest threat is going to be you leaving for another job, not finishing. And I agree with what Mike says, don't let someone else control the jobsite. I've had something very similar happen and it is pure hell.

Good Luck

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NickofTime

He brought in his own electrician and plumber and didn't get any permits for any of the work or have it inspected.

Gordo

So, tell the judge HO was acting as his own GC. You just did the finish work as contracted (hopefully written---if not it is a verbal contract).

Those mechanical subs are up the creek now.

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AtlanticWBConst

Good point....

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AtlanticWBConst

When a HO hires his own subs...then he ends up being the GC.

Whether that will hold up in court is another thing...but it's worth looking into as a legal argument....Any one else have thoughts on this?

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Mater

From the pictures and what I can see, from a finisher's perspective, I would love to finish a job hung that well. Good job . In the academy we were told time and time again CYB! cover your backside! From what I can tell you've done that. As stated before, wear dress slacks, tie, nice shirt and put a "mr. clean" shine on those wingtips. Answer ONLY questions asked and DON'T OFFER ANY INFORMATION. Take a deep breath and proceed slowly with confidence. We were trained to slow our heart rate, which in turn allows for better thought clarity/train of thought. When answering look his the judge/attorney straight in the eye. Sorry for the ramble, but there are my Lincolns.

hrscammisa

Just remember he pushed the job time line not you. Big point on your side he did not let you finish your job. And Ithink he did move stuff around on you.By him not excepting your new price its his falt not yours.he owes you for what you have done up to that point.or you can take it all down not tear it up but take it down thats the law.good luck with this ass

Stone Mountain

I would NEVER EVER EVER tell a customer that I had to put his job on hold to go do another one. OF COURSE he'll be PISSED. If I left an incomplete job to go elsewhere I wouldn't expect to be allowed back either. Get another crew, or shuttle back and forth.
Having said that (I am ignorant of your circumstances), there is a principle in Western Society law that basically says TANSTAAFL: there ain't no such thing as a free lunch; you should be paid for what you've done.
If it's small claims, you've got a good shot: usually, the party with documentation has the best chance.
Unless he can prove your deficencies, they are useless for claiming costs.
Best of luck tomorrow.

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Magnettica

This job looks pretty good to me except for the lack of required receptacles in a finished basement as MDShunk has previously mentioned. Sounds like this customer was a real jerk. I side with your opinion to honor your committment to the other customer as to keeping your word and going to the job where u can actually GET PAID!!


Best of luck tomorrow in court. I hope the court orders this jerk to remove the rock so a rough inspection can be done. I also hope you get all of the money YOU HAVE EARNED from this deadbeat!

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NickofTime

Stone: I appreciate your comments, however, here is the situation.

We allotted 4-5 weeks for this job and extended it by another week; a total of 6 weeks. It wasn't our fault that the job went longer than the pre-arranged time. The HO arranged for his own plumber and electrician who took a 3-day job and turned it into a 3 week project.

I had another customer booked in after him who had already given us a 1-week extension to allow us to complete this current job but due to all the time his contractors ate up, we still did not have any time to complete this job before moving on.

We did, however, advise the HO that we could come back to complete the job once we were finished the 2nd contract. He did not approve of this and seeked out other contractors to complete the renovation.

I hope this explains it a little better.

NickofTime

Thank you to everyone for your suggestions and support. I'll keep you posted on the outcome.

Mud Master

Ain't nothin' a little spackle won't take care of!!!!!!

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Stone Mountain

Nick, it doesn't matter. The customer will NEVER see it your way. YOu should never leave a job under those circumstances. The customer could easily interpret that as abandonment, and feel that he needed someone esle.
If the second customer can't wait, get more people, or like I said, go back and forth.
Now that I think about it, 11 years ago I built out my own basement. ( I occaisionally do interior work). Used mostly my own guys, but had an outside plumber.
The guy did the rough-ins, and delivered the toilet and sink. He asked for payment up to date, which I happily gave in cash. There was of course a holdback, because he wasn't done. We amiably agreed on how much he was to get, and I probably got a little behind him. I didn't mind because the work was good, and he'd done a lot of work for my brother, who is a GC.
All the drywall and trim was in place, and he could have come the next day to finish. However, right after he got the money in hand, he tells me he's getting married the next day and is going on a honeymoon for 3 weeks, so he'll be back to finish after that.
Tell me, Nick, should I have waited 3 weeks to get my toilet and sink hooked up?
well, I didn't. I was furious. I was only 3-4 days from a complete finished basement, ready for my oldest son to move in, and free up the house. (we were a bit cramped). I got another plumber in 2 days later, who took 1 day to do the work, and I was a happy man.
Fully FIVE weeks later, the first guy shows up unannounced, tools in hand, at my door to finish the work. When I told him I'd had someone else do it, he got abusive, and began demanding payment in full. I refused. There was only an $800 balance, and I'd paid the other guy $900 to do the work.
He didn't lose money, as he'd been paid his hourly rate, and for all the fixtures.
Who's right? Should I have compromised my living standards and waited for him to come back, or gone ahead and finished?

Seems to me your situation is about the same. You should definitely be paid for what you'd already done, but I can't fualt the customer for wanting to get finished.
Just my 2 cents, based on what I've read here.
Steve

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