Windsor One Rot Problem

OGStilts

Thank You! I suspected from post one there had to be a user error here and since those users never came back with any actual proof it looks more and more like someone didn't have all their facts straight when installing this product. What you said makes perfect sense to me and was very helpful.

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TBFGhost

....old post, but I used this information and did some research on WindsorOne as I have a client who wants almost all of his exterior siding replaced, but refused Azek. Doesn't believe in it, feels it will fail just the rest of the "maintance free building materials". He said he would rather take care of and replace pine and he really really was against it.... I said okay.

I came in here and did a search to see who was using what and how PFJ held up...to my horror I found this post....but once I got to the end I went on a mission to find out if WindorOne was treated. Went to the website, found they offer treated and non-treated. Called my yard to find out what they carry and they said 'We only carry WindsorOne Protected, and good for you for knowing there was a difference, not many ppl do"


So be aware....PFJ can be used outside....but use the right stuff....

So...thanks again for having this site...

Jason Whipple

Funny, I was just thinking about this thread last week.

TBF, I have about 8,000 to 10,000 lf of heart grade redwood that I can make into 1/2 x 6" clap siding. I'm moving the shop and would love to get rid of this before I do. I'll let it go for what pine siding goes for. Lemme know if you're interested.

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Jason E Whipple, General Manager
Historic House Restoration, Cincinnati, Ohio
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TBFGhost

I would be, but I am talking Fasicas and what not...thanks tho. I apperciate it.

Fabcon

I just joined tonite & am I happy I found this thread! I built my house in 02-03 & used miles of 1x8 W1- biggest mistake of my life. The finish primer looked amazing when I got the samples. I ordered a lift of 1x8, started trimming the whole exterior of my house, the next lift had tons of raised grain, tried to sand it all out, big PITA. Fast forward 3 years & I see a dark spot on a window casing, get up on the roof & I officially have mushrooms growing out of my casings! Rot on stuff like you wouldn't believe. Called W1 & got the "send us a sample & we'll get back to you"- total blowoff. Saw a sales rep at JLC show last year, tell him my complaints,"oh I'll call you & come out & look at it" another blowoff. I cant tell you that you should run as fast as you can from this product. Before anyone starts about trim lining up, priming cuts, proper fasteners-dont start- I've been doing this for 20 years & know how to prep exterior trim, fasteners & paint. I used a bunch inside for flat stock trim & it moved & shrank like crazy.
If there is a class action lawsuit, I want in- I'll even drive the bus there.

TBFGhost

Did you read the whole post? Is the W1 you used the "protected" one?

Fabcon

TBF-thanks for the reply. When I started using W1 there was not an option of protected or unprotected, or at least everyone I spoke with at W1 didn't give me that option, but I was told I could use it outside. When I got on the W1 bandwagon I spoke with quite a few people at W1 and they were telling me how great it was & they never had any problems-I even helped them get it into my local lumberyard, passed along some contact info to other builders & local architects,etc. After I started having all the problems-inside & outside- no one wanted to hear from me. I sent them a sample of the rotted boards with date stamps from the factory on the back & no reply. Spoke with a local sales rep last year at the JLC show & told him all my rotting problems, he took my card & no call. I cant express how poorly W1 handled everything but the sale with me, their customer service was terrible. It seems to be an industry problem, salesmen are your best friend to make the sale & have every excuse when something goes wrong.
I knew better than to use PFJ outside, but the W1 finish looked great & they assured me it would perform great- shame on me for not trusting what I know. I will never use PFJ outside again.

Paul Marlowe

Jack,
This is a very important topic. I don't have experience installing this product but have seen damage to products of similar design. As someone who has worked restoring wood rot for over two decades, I have a few thoughts. 1.) I am very concerned about the exterior use of fast monoculture grown timber. To much sapwood and poor rot resistance. 2.) Multiple exposed glue joints, protected only by paint is asking for trouble from the seemingly always present wood decay fungi. 3.) The use of century old Eastern White Pine as described by the New England Sawyer Alden Robbins is a much better specification beginning. 4.) Starting with at least a semi-rot resistant species is important. To add to this, there are techniques & specifications that will resist decay, but are to involved & varied for me to express here. 5.) Wood decay fungi need four items for survival, 1. food source 2. temperture range 3. oxygen and 4. water which is the one item we as Carpenters most importantly must understand. Remember to think like water and use common sense when installing exterior fabric and when analyzing existing wood rot.

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Paul, Preservation Carpenter and wood rot repair Specialist
Owner of ConServ Epoxy LLC and Marlowe Restorations LLC
www.conservepoxy.com and www.marlowerestorations.com

Bob428

I started using Windsor one pine when it first came out, stopped using it when every house I used it on rotted out in two years or less. I have a house right now I have to go back to remove the product and replace it. The reps for this company are deceitful liars. You have to fight tooth and nail with them to make good on this garbage product. The first time we had to call them out, the rep tried to tell me the back of the boards were printed with the words prime all cuts. I told him it didn't say that, after many conversations and finally a trip the customers home, when I ripped off a board and threw it at him, he fessed up. It wasn't until that time that they started to stamp the back of the pine with prime all cuts. That was in 2007. The bottom line is that there is not only the potential for rot, it would seem that there is type of chemical reaction with perhaps the glue that makes this stuff rot in a way I have never seen in my life. I have been in this trade for 38 years. When it rots and the rot goes undetected for a while, it rots through everything, sheathing and studs. It's time for a class action against Windsor Mill.

skyhook

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Bob428

ShyHook:

Most of the lumber companies here in Mass stopped selling the product. But I will concede that not every piece rots out. For example, in some instances 2 out of 4 pieces of window trim will rot out and 2 will not. If you use it for any type of water table application, kiss it goodbye. The end result here is that a nice intended interior product was marketed as an exterior product. There is nothing wrong with the application process; as a matter of fact that is exactly what the reps say???

Gkatzz

I'm always reluctant to get involved in these 'conversations.' WindsorONE is one of the Katz Roadshow sponsors and the last thing I want is to appear like I'm an apologist for a sponsor. But...this whole issue of wood rot is emblematic of a much bigger problem in our industry, and because I care about education and our trade, I can't avoid commenting, nor can I avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest. But read on and you'll see that there is NO conflict of interest here.

First, the larger problem: Our trade--carpentry--has changed seismically, yet our installation procedures have not. We're using building products and wood products that have never been used before. But many carpenters are installing those products using old techniques.

The difference between the building products we're using today is paralleled by the difference between the tools we're using: we don't use transits and builders levels to layout homes, we use lasers; we don't use hand saws, we use power saws; we don't use Yankee Screw drivers...in fact, we don't even use drill motors for running in screws and lags, we use impact drivers.

Our tools have changed and so have our building products. One of the most important products that has changed, and one we all use or like to use, is wood. Yet we're still installing it the same way, without priming end cuts, without protecting it with bevels/slope/pitch, without using proper flashing, and installing it too close to grade. You might have been able to get away with those techniques with traditional building materials, but not today.

Traditionally, carpenters learned from apprenticing to older carpenters. but that system doesn't work anymore. EVERYTHING...our WHOLE WORLD as carpenters...has CHANGED. Today, carpenters need to study their craft just like doctors do; carpenters need to pay attention and learn, or suffer.

Sorry for prefacing this with a lecture, but I couldn't avoid that any more than this response.

There are some really good comments in this thread. Paul Marlowe's was especially important. Every building scientist will agree that water is the single most damaging element to home construction. That is why drainage and drying is so unbelievably important. Especially now that we're using fresh-growth sap wood for trim (using old growth wood is no longer an option--that's part of the seismic change I was talking about).

But we're also using plastic housewrap, or foam sheathing, or solid osb sheathing with plastic housewrap on top, or water resistant osb sheathing like Zip System, and then we're installing siding and trim on top of that! Without ANY breathing or drying room.

Read this article: "Mind The Gap", by Joe Lstiburek. It's on his website. I'm sorry but I wasn't allowed to attach the pdf, the file is too big, and I wasn't allowed to include the url--I haven't made enough posts to this forum.

Joe Lstiburek's article, Mind The Gap, addresses the problem I've been ranting about for years, the sandwich of osb, housewrap, and siding/trim; the lack of an air space; and the fact that our siding and trim can't dry after it's been wetted. That is the second seismic change in our industry. If there is no space for diffusion, there is no drying; if there is not drying, there is rot.

Rainscreen walls prevent that problem, completely. And they solve paint, siding, and trim failure, too. But they won't solve every problem: you HAVE to prime all cuts on every wood product used for exterior trim. Read the instructions: Prime Trim, Choice Trim, Miratec, Extira, WindsorONE, etc. They all require priming end cuts. The only trim material that doesn't require end priming is PVC. Yes, WindsorONE now prints it on the back of their boards, but only because so many installers don't read the instructions.

Regardless of the conjecture made by a couple of contributors to this thread, about the glue being the culprit, or about WindsorONE causing the sheathing and the studs to rot.....the real cause is using traditional methods to install new materials. Failure to prime end cuts usually results in the ends of the boards failing first, especially if the unprimed casing legs are sitting on a sill without adequate slope; the real cause for a whole wall rotting is not providing room for diffusion.

Gary

Morning Wood

Gary. good write. I'm a total believer in rain screen and proper flashing. Has to be done. See it done improperly all the time though. That said. I'm done with finger jointed outside. I used some on my own addition as a rake soffit. It went in with one coat of finish paint on it and all ends primed with oil based primer. got the second coat of paint a few weeks later. It is now bleeding through in spots where the pieces are either very sappy, or are sap wood. Stuff has been up for 2 years max. Doing it on south and North side both. Rest of the trim is clear white pine. what is the point using inferior materials that don't last.

Tom Struble

was that the ledgendary Gary Katz?Hi Gary

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Tom

WarriorWithWood

Why Yes Tom, I do believe it was.

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-Dennis
www.bowmanch.com

Tom Struble

i see him on my tv

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Tom

Gkatzz

Morning Wood,
I have WindsorONE 1x trim on the addition to my shop/studio. I primed the end and then ran the boards right down onto the concrete driveway! They don't sit in water, but they are right against the concrete. NO problems. I used their material for siding (beadboard and t&g), when I knew I wasn't supposed to (but I had it here and...what-the-h...), but I installed it on TWO layers of felt paper and it's in great shape. I did that addition almost ten years ago to the day. I also ran Windsor plinth blocks down to a sandstone walkway! They sit in the water when the sprinklers come on! Yep, they have checked and cracked, even though I primed the heck out of them. But what do you expect? Wood is a hygroscopic material--it changes moisture content based on the environment it's in. If it gets wet and stays wet, it will rot. If it gets wet and drys out quickly, it will be fine. If it gets wet and dries out slowly, it will check and crack and the paint will fail.
My GOODNESS, what's with builders today! These same practices have been SOP for decades, even with solid lumber, even with cedar. When I started in the business, I was trained to never install wood down to concrete, never install wood within 8 in. of grade (dirt or hardscape), never ever install wood within 2 in. of a roof, and never trust flashing, it always leaks, so any wood that you cover with flashing MUST have a good pitch, so moisture that gets in under the flashing can drain out. But I'm seeing so many carpenters these days who have NO CLUE about those SOP techniques.

Sorry for the rant, but it bugs when people blame their problems on someone else. Though I must say, carpenters are generally a pretty good group when it comes to taking responsibility for their work, and when it comes to wanting to learn how to improve their work. I wouldn't change careers for anything.

As for bleeding problems, I've heard of that happening, but it's pretty rare. And it could be related to how long the material was up before it was finished. Sure, every product can have failure issues--I see it in materials and tools all the time, but there's a big difference between failure caused by installation, and failure caused by a product going bad.

Gary

Tom Struble

well then Gary if i was youi'd come around more often an kick these other guys butts once in awhile

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Tom

Craig Flynn

Bob428—

My name is Craig Flynn; I am President & CEO at Windsor Mill, a family owned manufacturing business for 38 years. I have previously posted on this thread, and addressed a number of potential reasons for damage due to rot on the exterior of buildings.

I apologize for the experience and poor representation by one or two product rep’s that you said you encountered. I did speak with our current sales team, and none of them recall the situation you speak of below, so it’s possible this particular rep is no longer with the Company or wasn’t a Windsor Mill rep. Regardless, it is very unfortunate that you found any rep to be deceitful.

I would be more than willing to help you directly, should you wish to contact me at craig@WindsorONE.com, and perhaps we can ascertain the cause leading to the rot of the trim boards, as well as the rotting sheathing and studs that you describe below. Please understand that we only manufacture trim boards and specialty lumber, and that we do not manufacture the other products that are rotting. Nonetheless, if the trim boards are in fact manufactured by our Company, we are more than willing to help solve the exterior envelope problems you’re seeing.

To clarify a few things:
• We have had “paint your cuts” (in some form or another) on our products since 1996.
• Painting your cuts is not specific to WindsorONE, but that of all primed wood products, including recommendations from the Western Red Cedar Association, the US Forest Products Lab, and the Canadian Wood Council;
• There are no “special” installation instructions for WindsorONE, only following best practices that have been recommend for the last 30+ years;
• There are no organics in our glues that would contribute to or cause decay

Bob, I am generally able to respond to e-mails within 24 hours, and I look forward to your message.

Respectfully,
Craig