Windsor One Rot Problem

Jackby

Here is an answer to the species of wood, "copy and pasted" directly from their website.

What species of wood is used? The performance of WindsorONE can be attributed to the strengths of our end and edge gluing process, high quality materials, and premium shipping process. The species of wood that WindsorONE uses as its substrate is only one element of the final product's quality. Equally important is the quality of the cut that is taken. WindsorONE originates from plantation wood grown in even-aged stands in topographical regions which minimize the development of tension and compression wood. For those reasons, WindsorONE has chosen to use Radiata Pine from South America and New Zealand. Quality control checks relating to cutting, grading, and kiln drying are conducted by our own people in these countries prior to shipment of the raw material to Windsor Mill.

RichN

I'm fortunate to be busy doing high end customs and remodels. I recently was called to a multi-million dollar water front custom home that we built. This home has miles of Windor One material. In all my days I have never seen a product fail like this one. This house was 3 years old when it first showed signs of rot. I don't mean just a little, every where! I immediatly called Windsor. It took months to have someone come out and look. It was not even a representative from Windsor but a "Water Intrusion Specialist" they hired. Gee- guess what he said- 34 pages of the obvious! Everyones fault but theirs! We primed all cuts, caulked, flashed, bla bla bla!

I stand behind all products that we build, big and small! I will stand behind this one! I'm now forced to hire a water intrusion specialist, attorney, and bring on board the insurance companies I had over the last several years.

This product has be inspected by many; the home owners, other builders, various carpenter and they have all said the same thing; they have never seen a product fail this fast and to this degree!

I find it difficult to express my frustration regarding this product.

This should not be used and sold for out door use!

Please contact me to fight the sale of this product for outdoor use!

By the way, even the Windsor water intrusion specialist told me he would have not recommended using this product on the North side of the house- "Are you friggin kidding me!!!"

WarriorWithWood

I smell a class action suit brewin'

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rbsremodeling

It only looks that way until Windsor one puts their lawyers up one of these guys azzes

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Jackby

In reply to rbsremodeling;
They may have lawers, but it seems like they also have a problem with the wood their selling us. I have never seen anything rot so fast, ever! If more contractors speak up, something could be done. I wonder how many of us just made the repairs without trying to make a claim? Whats this B.S. that "RichN" brought up about their "Intrusion Specialist" saying it should not be used on the north side ? ? , WHAT ?
So, does this mean the house we used it on is north facing on all four sides? Cause thats how many sides have rotted wood!
Hope to hear from more contractors about this.

Gkatzz

It looks like there might have been some misapprehension about my presentation on Durable Exterior Trim. Jason W and Tomstruble apparently thought I was saying not to use WindsorONE at all. I wasn't. I was only repeating their installation instructions: it's wood, so it can't be installed within 6-8 in. of the ground (I can't remember the exact dimention but it's in their instructions); it must always have a steep pitch (about 15 degrees, so water will shed off and not sit on it); it must be protected by flashing if it's installed level, like a bandboard; and they don't recommend using it near any large body of water, like the ocean or a lake, or the water front. Sounds pretty terrible, huh? Well, those are the same instructions that apply to all wood products these days, unless you're using old growth redwood or cedar. Not much of that around anymore, and even if there were, it's not sustainable and not something we should be cutting up for houses.

Actually, what I try to help carpenters understand is that diffusion is a necessity behind all trim and siding these days. Without diffusion (air circulation and evaporation), water trapped behind the siding and trim will cause rot very quickly. That's what happens when you sandwich plastic housewrap between solid sheathing and siding/trim.

The technique I've been teaching for the last six or eight years or so, for wrapping columns, is meant to also overcome woodmovement problems...no matter what species of wood you use. All the fresh growth wood we use today moves exponentially more than the old growth wood my father's crew used. All the trees cut for trim today are fresh growth young trees, no matter what the species. That's why almost all the wood we use is face grain, which moves a ton more than vg or edge grain (same thing).

What I recommend is using Azek or PVC for the column pedestal, to keep the wood away from the ground, then switch to wood for the column wrap. Never wrap the column first and then apply the plinth detail on top of the column wrap. Yes, that's the way it was done for generations, but we can't use those techniques anymore. Fresh growth wood moves too much.

On all the homes we've worked on in the last ten years or so, if they're on the beach or on a hilltop, we used Azek, Miratek, or Extira, or a combination of those products. Nothing else will hold up to really harsh weather.

But I've got WindsorONE ALL OVER my studio. Even used it for siding! Ran it right down to the concrete driveway. It's been there for over six years and still looks brand new. But then, I installed it on top of felt paper with no sheathing, just the studs, so there's plenty of room for diffusion. There's a good overhang, almost 3 ft. And the driveway falls away from the house. Which helps keep the moisture away from the wood.

Hope that helps! Sorry for being long winded, but it's not a short-answer topic!

I sure would like to see some photos of that trim failure. I've put together a pretty good collection, which makes it much easier to teach carpenters what works and what doesn't. We all have a lot to learn these days, especially when you consider that we're rarely using products our fathers used.
Gary

neolitic

Thank you for clearing up
your part of this.
Agreed that the old rules
don't always apply to the
plantation grown stuff
we get now.
For the first time in my
life, I have seen lumber
shrink appreciably in length.
I was taught that never happens.

Frankly I'm surprised that
you haven't stirred a single
comment from your many
fans on here.

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rbsremodeling

I have seen lots of lumber do this during the boom years when I guess they were cranking out the lumber. Really freaked me out.

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neolitic

Yeah, deck ends that were cut
actually using a straight edge,
a year later were zig zag.
Scarf joint in the middle of
my son's deck, opened up 3/8"?

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Jason Whipple

Neo,
That's only because we know we can get his input on other forums.

Thanks gary

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Historic House Restoration, Cincinnati, Ohio
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Alden Robbins

I just wanted to put in my two cents here. In the effort of full disclosure, I own an Eastern White Pine sawmill. My family has done the same thing for 5 generations. We harvest the trees and buy from local loggers, trees that have grown in the Maine climate and soils for an average of 100 years or so. While these are not "old growth" by definition, they are certainly not plantation grown. I have not seen the rot issues with white pine trim that I have seen with radiata trim. It is grown at a much slower rate, in a harsh climate. I hate to see problems with fingerjointed imported wood impacting the reputation of wood trim in general, especially Eastern White Pine trim, grown, harvested, and manufactured right here in New England.

stp57

Is WinsorOne the same thing as the Armour Wood I buy in Lowes? It is finger jointed & double primed & stipulates that all cut ends need be primed. It is marketed for exterior use, but I have used it for wainscoting $ such because it almost flawless as trim.
Steve

stp57

Balsa wood?
Steve

stp57

Oops, sorry A.W. I didn't see your post until too late.
Steve

OGStilts

I love it when one hit wonders like Jackby and Rich come in and flame a company, the company steps up to the plate and offers to look at their problem, and they don't follow up with what the final verdict was. My research has led me to believe this is a good product and I am strongly considering using it in an upcoming project so I would love to hear back from them to what transpired. I'm still not completely sold on using outdoors but I like the finish and profiles for interior use. If anyone has any other experiences here, let us hear them.

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Morning Wood

I've used Windsor One while subbing for a guy. We used it outside and I don't really know how it is holding up. I certainly liked working with it and thought it seemed like a decent product. Hand planing FJ sucks though cause the grain is every which way. I've also used Princeton FJ which I like too, but they really prime heavy sometimes. I've also used something else but I can't remember the name. It was horrible and failed immediately. That said, for my own jobs, I only use FJ if it is inside or being used as sofit boards. I find it cheaper to use clear pine that is primed than FJ because you can order then needed lengths and have less waste. Bottom line with FJ. You can't put that stuff up outside without at least one coat of finish paint on it. And the second better not be far behind.

Tom Struble

im still all flustered that he actually used my name in a post

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Tom

Alden Robbins

From what I can tell, Armour wood is a finger jointed radiata product, that has been pressure treated to help protect it from rot. I cannot comment on how it performs.

Alden Robbins

Princeton FJ is an Eastern White Pine substrate, I am not familiar with the coating, since they just switched vendors for that. I have seen customers starting to switch back to solid primed boards because of the significant issues with fingerjoint. I agree that it works fine as an interior product, but outside it is a different game. It seems that Fingerjointed products are a dime a dozen, with a variety of substrates being offered, (paulownia, eastern pine, baltic pine, radiata pine, etc.) I feel that some products hold up much better than others, just as with all trim, proper finishing, with attention to nail holes and end cuts must be done. It seems though, that with FJ, the failure tends to be catastrophic. Solid boards are going to hold together, and the length distribution does allow for less waste. You will however get some of the defects which are invevitable in solid wood,(crook, sweep, wane, shake, pitch, etc) however, if these pieces are selected out before they are on the house, you should not have to worry about the advanced decay and joint seperation of FJ. We all have seen 100 yr old barns with white pine board and batten hold up for generations, I just don't think you will see the same longevity with some of the finger jointed products being offered.

Sweet Lou

there is more to the story....specific to the issue of "rot" and "decay" mentioned in this thread relating to the WindsorOne product, the specie in question is Radiata Pine. This plantation grown pine is an excellent specie for interior millwork, mouldings and boards. Unfortunately, untreated Radiata Pine is and has been used for exterior applications (trim - some siding profiles) for several years. But unlike Eastern White Pine, Redwood, and Cedar, it does not have the natural decay resistant properties so proven over time in these species. However, if properly treated, Radiata Pine is an excellent option for exterior trim applications. I would venture to say that the problems mentioned here with WindsorOne were on product that they have put into the marketplace without treatment (they make and sell both a treated and untreated product). I've heard more times than I care to repeat that "my customer doesn't care if it's treated or not, they just want the cheapest product"...well in the end, you get what you pay for. WindsorOne has had the best reputation in the marketplace for years and are now finding out that even the best primed Radiata Pine will rot if used outside. That is why they are now treating the product before priming. There is a whole slew of Chilean grown untreated Radiata Pine being primed and sold for exterior use (Palownia from China, Baltic pine also), and it is only a matter of time before it blows up. My point is...if properly treated, Radiata Pine is a great choice for exterior trim/siding applications...with 30-50 year warranties to back them up. Another thing...Radiata Pine from New Zealand is generally considered superior to Radiata Pine from Chile' as it is grown longer (28-32 years as opposed to 18-22 years) before being harvested, which gives you a more stable, less resiny fiber...which is key to the quality of what's under the paint. In addition to WindsorOne, some of the other products in the market offering a "TREATED" Radiata Pine for exterior use include:
Claymark Centurion - TruCore treated
Bodyguard - LOSP treated
Lifespan - LOSP treated
Armourwood - LOSP treated

You'll want to check out the different treatment processes, as they are not the same (LOSP is not acceptable for interior use, TruCore is) and don't offer the same warranty - but that is a discussion for another time.

I hope some of this helps.