SOS Bath Remodel: Bizarre Floor Situation

zmusashi

Hi there everyone
I am renovating a bathroom in Queens and I have encountered something I have never seen before; breaking through two layers of tile in this one bath/one family house built in 1955, there is no wood subfloor, only the beams crisscrossing about three to four feet apart and filled in with rubble-- looks like pumice in the first layer, which was spread over 1x6, nailed onto nailers several inches down. I wanted to move the toilet and so I cleared out one square-- what a lot of rubble! Jeez, I didn't sign on for this! Thought I might repack it after doing work and float a new floor on top like the one I found. My plumber tells me to pull all the material everywhere cause "it's too heavy, put plywood on"-- but I'd have to cut 2x6's I guess, and set them in with joist hangars. PS, I have to remove more rubble to do some more plumbing in another area.
Either way it's not all that big a deal, but does anyone have any insight on this method of construction? One suggestion was that it is a noise and fire barrier; there is no sign of stress in the slightest in the kitchen underneath this bath.
Thanks everyone for any info or insight
Great website

Zmusashi

osborn

Yeah. Ive run across this a couple times. I my case it wasnt rubble but concrete. You wont need to bust up the concrete like I have had to do. I would write up a change order and remove the debris, reframe it and put subfloor down.

kevjob

sounds like an old school mud job. we pull all mortar and re-frame all joist and drop new 3/4 sub floor at minimum

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Tscarborough

It is not bizarre, and works quite well. Why replace it if it is working? Seashells were another common sound deadening material.

reveivl

It ain't broke, don't fix it! Pull the rubble out, redo the plumbing and re-install the debris. Cheaper, faster, better.

We wouldn't build like that today, but that doesn't mean our way is better, merely faster and more cost effective. Try adding sound-proofing to that floor/ceiling and find out what it costs.

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mdshunk

If there's another unit below, that might be fireproofing material. Cinder type clinker stuff was used to fill party walls around here in rowhouses at the beginning of the century. Looks sorta like pumice.

mtp

I always get my structural advice from my plumber

zmusashi

Thanks a lot everyone
good spectrum of opinions
Not so daunting after a good night's sleep
Mike, your reply hit the nail on the head best for me
this plumber which the client once insisted on using is right out of central casting.
PS I'm not going to use him. So if anyone needs some plumbing done in Queens NY (Astoria) this guy should be free this coming week.

ChrWright

It sounds very common for mortar beds of the time. I run into those on a regular basis in the older homes I work on. If the floor is stable and you're making no significant changes to the room, I might consider saving it. If you are changing anything--take out the floor and start from scratch. I've seen more than a few cracked floors from guys trying to save portions of mortar beds. This is called a "cold" joint and it's to be avoided like the plague if you're going back with tile.

Most of the time, you'll need to update the plumbing and/or change the layout of the space anyway so tearing it out is your only option. It's tough work but usually they have chicken wire or mesh reinforcement that makes it easy to tear out in chunks. In my area, the joists are usually hatcheted to a point and you have to tear out all of the 1x material and sister/level them for a new subfloor. You can usually expect to find at least one structural problem from either the plumbing or HVAC. Older homes typically had next to little inspection and the mechanicals are usually hacked in with little regard for structural integrity. If you've ever been in an older home and seen doors that have been cut at the top over and over again so they'll close you know what I mean.

It sucks when you haven't bid the job to include the tearout & re-floor but such are the things experience is made of. I try to pre-frame clients with older homes at the contract stage by telling them to expect me find something unforseen after demolition that will require repair. After you've worked on a few older homes you can usually give them an idea of what those might be. There are a few things from experience I can pretty much guarantee will need fixing so I'm sure to include them in my quote--and make sure if I'm competing against someone else that the homeowner knows about it. Few things can enhance your skill and ability in the eyes of a HO more than being able to point out a detail the competition overlooked.

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zmusashi

Thank you, Chris