Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans

strathd

Jersey did outlaw the sale of eggs for awhile.

loneframer

And the consumption of eggs prepared with a runny yolk.

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"Walking the fine line between production and perfection"



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Celtic

As stated by whom?
You???

The reality is - a permit is NOT required as a CF and a luminaire are, as I have pointed out previously, "similar".

Actually, a CF can be mounted on standard box - for this, give 312.27(D) a very close reading for the details.



Greg....I absolutely need written proof of this and a statute supporting your own personal OPINION here.
Anything less,.........[I'm sure you know the rest].

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Celtic

yea, but that's only for a week prior to Halloween

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Tinstaafl

Are you on the '08 NEC? I don't see a 312.27.

314.27(D) seems to say you're mistaken.

mahlere

it's in the '05....and you need to reread it...Celtic is correct...he just listed the wrong section...

Tinstaafl

I don't have a copy of the '05, but the '08 reads:

(D) Boxes at Ceiling-suspended (Paddle) Fan Outlets.

Outlet boxes or outlet box systems used as the sole support of a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan shall be listed, shall be marked by their manufacturer as suitable for this purpose, and shall not support ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans that weigh more than 32 kg (70 lb). ...

I don't think I've ever seen a "standard" ceiling box marked as usable for ceiling fans, though I confess I've never actually searched for that info. Seriously, is that a normal spec I just haven't noticed?

mahlere

key words are right there....

Celtic

It's good to see people aren't just blindly following my advice
I honestly do appreciate that.

Tin...TY for the correction ~ the article under the '08 [and going back as far as '02] IS 314.27 ~ NOT 312.27.



However....
....you really do need to re-re-re-read it

I don't think I have ever been proven wrong on this forum in regards to NEC [everything else I have said is completely untrue ]

That's why mahlere is my #1 [maybe even only?] fan

I let you guys in on a secret:
The NEC doesn't say what you think it says ~ and it certainly doesn't say what you want it to say.

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Tinstaafl

Ah. Okay, can't argue with that. I don't usually think "outside the box" when installing fans.

Celtic

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mahlere

maybe this guy was correct

neolitic

Okay, what else is the
damn thing hanging from?

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Celtic

I'll give you a hint...not the box ...and yet, perfectly legal.

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greg24k

As stated by whom?
You???

My Friend, I don't do electrical work, I don't even change receptacles for my customers. I hire a licensed electrician for all my electrical work. I have done 6 code violation jobs for HO who had a Township home inspection prior to theirs home's sale. Township home inspector provided them with a list of code violations that had to be taken care of prior to issuance of certificate of occupancy. Hanging fan was one of the items on the list in 3 residences located in two different townships.

The reality is - a permit is NOT required as a CF and a luminaire are, as I have pointed out previously, "similar".

I know what the reality was in a few towns I did the work, maybe some townships do not require permit, but the few towns I did the work, permit was required. I am just stating the facts. I am not electrician, Magnetica is from NJ, maybe he will reply to this post, he is an electrician, so he is more updated on the code issue.


Actually, a CF can be mounted on standard box - for this, give 312.27(D) a very close reading for the details.

I don't know what code reference you posted, tell me please what code book this is from so I can check. I have been a new home builder for the past 20 years, and I know when I layout my homes with my electrician, he always ask if there is any fans in the house. He will never mount a fan on a regular fixture box. I assume you are a licensed electrician and you know the code better then me, or maybe this is just a standard of practice to install the fan on any fixture box, but I will call DCA on Monday and I will double check what is the proper way of doing this.



Greg....I absolutely need written proof of this and a statute supporting your own personal OPINION here.
Anything less,.........

Ref. E3805, E3806 and E4001.6
The code places limitations on boxes used for supporting Ceiling-suspended fans and luminaries (lighting fixtures).

Code Basics

Requirements for boxes supporting ceiling paddle fans:

Marked by Manufacturer as suitable.
Marked for Maximum weight when supporting 36-70 LB fan.
Not permitted for fans over 70 LB.

Requirements for luminaries (lighting fixtures):

Permitted for luminaries weighting 50 LB or less.
Not permitted for luminaries weighing over 50 LB, unless the box is listed for the weight.



I don't come up with this Bro. It is NJ law and it would be much more easy to function if every Town adopts the same code standards. Unfortunately they don't. In some towns you do the work and it is the minimum requirement, in other Towns it is the maximum requirement. One town will enforce updates as they come out, and other towns don't... we learn as we go and when we learn something new and when doing work in a town that don't require the maximum compliance, we apply the maximum because it only makes us look more knowledgeable, our work will look better and safer.

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neolitic

Toggle bolts?

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mahlere

think plastic....

standard metal pancake boxes are not listed, but can be used...plastic pancakes can be used...

and truthfully, toggle bolts can be used...it depends what they are secured to...

Celtic

No offense Greg....that's a great story....and w/o some sort of documentation it remains a great story, just like Goldilocks, Hanzel & Gretal, and the Easter Bunny.


ALL towns in NJ follow the UCC ~ it's a State mandated process to prevent confusion in this most densely populated of States.
As I am also an EC, I am issuing the challange to prove me wrong and educate me. Perhaps you can obtain a copy of the inspection document and scan/post it to help me and others?


I referenced 314.27 in the 2008 NEC [TY to Tin for code correction] ...which has remained unchanged from at least 2002.
Call the DCA on Monday...better still, contact Suzanne Borek at code enforcment: (609) 984-7609.



[/quote]


What you have shown does still NOT indicate some sort of certification from an EC for CF installations.


I'd really like to learn...I hope you are the person who can help.

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neolitic

I think maybe .1% of retrofit
ceiling fans I've seen fall on
a joist.


Would sure be nice if they
all did.

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Tinstaafl

Ultimately, whatever the place is framed with.

In reality, those plastic "saddle" boxes Mahlere refers to work quite well for new construction, but not so well for retrofitting an existing light location. The great majority of retrofits are going to require that you add some wood or metal inside the ceiling space in order to get that kind of support [independent of the box].

New work or old, 99% of the time it's just as simple to go ahead and use a box intended for the purpose. That allows you to position the fan exactly where you want it.