Question For All Self Employed/owners???

codaman

I started out doing the siding work, then took on his roofing, then finally the framing work and sometimes interior trim and paint work. at one point i had a 8 man crew on the job. now when i first started i was there daily 6 days a week sunup to sundown

I think you answered your own question. All of my subs have laborers/journeymen, and they do a decent job but don't communicate as well or perform the same as the "Boss", or when the boss is there. They usually are not the reason I use someones services. There are times when my subs have left their guys on my job and I scratch my head and say I might as well find someone to do that and make money on them myself. No disrespect to your son or crew intended, just my experience.

RayGoerdt

That is it right there, many HOs ask if I will be on the job or just send guys. I assure them that I will be on the job for all contracted work.

I think for the purpose of this post, it boils down to what the HOs expectations were at the time the contract was made. This may be a point that should be clearly understood before signing.

Ray

tinner666

I've been on both sides of this one!

I'm not gonna add to either side, but mention the 4th. one instead.

IRS rules about subs vs employees!

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Frank Slate Roof Repairs, Richmond, Va.

wireless

Are you selling a remodel or the right to be controlled? When you call your supply house due you make sure the owner is going to deliver your material? The CEO of Sprint will turn on your cellphone? Isn't the homeowner buying a remodeled kitchen? What does it make a difference how it happens? As long as it is done right, within the time frame, to spec's, and of quality let monkeys build it!

Bodger

Utter chaos ensues when that is the case and the GC doesn't leave a good lead man on the site.
That is also a big complaint with H/O's, as everyone knows.
Where the hell is the guy?

billderboots

None taken.. This is his version of what goes on. If i hadnt looked at your name and local i would have thought my builder was answering this thread. I know my son is valiant worker and smart to boot, he can read a print and layout like no tomorrow. but.. he doesnt have my tact when dealing with the tough questions, like should this room be 2 inches wider to allow for handicap accessability etc.. but then does this also neccessitate my being there constantly? bear in mind this man does provide me with 75% of my work load and we always come in ahead of schedule even when he throws a 60 day turn around for settlement. and that friends is from frame up. he builds very large elaborate custom homes usually 4000 sq ft and up. so sales are here and there. i have to fill in with the usual.. re-roof jobs old siding, replacement windows etc.. and i usually do the tedious jobs myself and one helper. I see your point and thanks!

billderboots

Mike you may be onto something because my wife also insists that there is more production when im there. OF Course there will be any of us bosses knows if we babysit all day and crack the whip the work gets done quicker. Bear in mind We have always met the deadlines and my work holds no other crew up. I check that daily. And yes my builder and i have walked around this last 8 unit town house project numerous times, to look over and plan the agenda. and he has yet to point out any poor quality work to me. I really think that he likes me there because he feels like im his job super, because i do so many facets of the work. Its not that i dont like being on the job, in fact im usually very close by doing bids and banking and small tedious work. I really think he feels lost when im not there. i dunno its just the vibe i get.
in fact my wife often asks me if he thinks im his boyfriend or something.
sorry for the rant! and thanks for posting

Ivinni

I certainly will not try to tell you your business, so this is real sentiment here.

Having a customer comprising more than 25% of your business is extremely dangerous. Your situation with this particular personality could change without a moments notice.

One example:

When I first got into the commercial business, I had a customer (project manager for the sixth largest glazing contractor in the country) whom I did all his insulation for. He was lost without me. Worked for him from Miami to Tulsa to DC.

Being prudent, as I knew he was, he always checked my pricing on every job and on each I was never more than 5% higher than anyone in the area where the job was. Always finished on time, cleaned up every day (very important in commercial high rise) and never any adds/back charges for hang ups because I knew I had all his business. Big mistake.

He began to take me for granted, his wife filed for divorce, his attitude changed, he lost his children in the divorce and they moved 1000 miles away.

I had spent two years wining and dining, duck hunting together and being at his beck and call. He was 75% of my business so I TOOK CARE OF HIM.

It's been 4 years since I have seen him and had to really hustle to save myself. FWIW.

People change, no matter if your service is perfect, and so will their opinion on that service.

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its not going to get better with straps, or new footings or even aroma therapy.

Mike Finley

There are a million things besides the finished job being done correctly. There are changes, questions about something in progress, all kinds of stuff.

All I'm saying is that if your relationship started one way and has now evolved to another one and you did the evolving, it's likely that in his mind things have changed in his eyes from the original reason he first started hiring you.

I went through this with a tile sub. Great sub, great quality. When I hired him it was him doing the work, after about 3 months he had a helper, in a few months more his helper was doing menail tasks alone (such as doing the final grouting and clean up), then his helper was doing some of the setting alone. Was it the same? Not really, there were slight issues, just minor things that were not right that had to be corrected, however these wouldn't be issues except that the sub was now leaving his helper to do them instead of him and wasn't up to snuff. A few months later it changed again, he started subbing the entire job to another guy, they didnt' work out... long story short he was trying to grow his business and I was having to deal with his growing pains... I didn't care for it. When I hired him, I hired HIM. He had the right to grow his business, but I had the right not to suffer as he learned how to do it.

Mike Finley

The original poster is a sub to a GC.

CBG

As all fellow GC's know, we experience this conundrum from both sides. But I'm always as careful as possible to explain to both HO's and subs (and spell out in contracts) scope of work, timelines & completion dates, and especially, if I'm not on site or if my sub owner/pm isn't on site, the scheduled work still needs to get done on time and on spec. by whatever means necessary. We all hear the whining from the HO's and that's to be expected if for no other reason than their inexperience with the process; but I do make a point (with as few exceptions as possible) to be on each site at some point every day, to meet, review and plan with my PM/Super. Similarly, if the principle representing my subs isn't onsite each day, that's fine as long as the work is getting done to my expectations. As construction owners be we GC's, subs or other, we do have companies to run, and that entails many more things than being on site constantly. Some folks forget that little detail.

wellbuilthome

I never worked for any builders Just HO and they get pissey if i pulled a disappearing act . When i start a job i would introduce my foremen as the go to guy. (The man ) He could handle the day to day BS . If the owners became a problem I would step in for some hand holding I like to call all my HO every morning and every night . 7 days a week . I liked to work with 3 jobs running , and i would look in on them every day or so . I work with my weakest crew on mostly job lay out ,masonry , framing demo this is where every one seemed to get the jitters . The jobs would run smoother with you there, but you cant be every where. Some one has to do the boss work . When you get a new builder give them there own foremen, always try to send the same guys. In the summer months i would take Fri,sat,sun off and would be running jobs from the deck of my sail boat . The rest of the year i had a 7 day a week gig. John

fci

Sounds like the customer lacks confidence in your ability to explain and convey the scope and management of the project. The problem with alot of contractors is that as they grow they get too busy and lose control of their projects due to time restraints and unfortunately the customer pays for it.

billderboots

[quote=Mike Finley;558649]There are a million things besides the finished job being done correctly. There are changes, questions about something in progress, all kinds of stuff.

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That right there Mike i think might just be the answer i been looking for. Yep I think that pretty much sums up both sides. I think things are working out fine from my perspective and he thinks things could be better. problem for me is I almost got to see it his way like it or not.

Burby

At the end of the day, it is what you & the GC, your customer, agreed on in the beginning, from quality of work to be expected, meetings, expectations on your part in consideration to his part of the job.
And what has changed since then.
Any good GC likes to have his subs be successful in business, this shows their head is in the right place and will be there 10 years from now, as long as your business grows with respect to existing customers if you still offer your services to them.
By that i mean don;t over schedule yourself so you are running in circles and causing delays, lessening your quality, or dragging out jobs longer than you normally would have and or hiring bodies to be on the job to try and pacify customers.
Look at the value of this customer, if one you would like to keep, call & set up an appointment to sit & chat about everything.
Find out what it is that is bothering him now, explain your side, if you both can meet in the middle, great, if not, see what is reasonable and make an educated decision from there. You do not have to give a final answer then, but try to have one by the next business day, if one is needed.
This way you both win or shake hands and part ways and you still win. He will have greater respect for you for doing this as you will in yourself. Do not wait til things build to a point of no return and throw away a good customer.
You & him know the agreement made when you first began your working relationship, you & him need to revisit this and make changes if indeed changes are needed.

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Proud to help make a house your Home

Never judge another by one's own intelligence

Mike Finley

I used to use an electrican years ago. When I first hired him it was him. I was hiring a master electrician to do the work on our projects. (Our electrical projects aren't huge, I've never had one run longer than 1 day in all this time). He wanted to grow his company and about 6 months later he had a helper, journeyman electrician I suppose show up on jobs with him, pretty soon it was just the employee.

Things started going down hill, we started failing simple rough inspections for simple things like non-bonding of a motor to a pump in a jetted tub or simpler things than that. Little things we being forgotten or left out of the job, little mistakes were being made here and there.

Long story short was his billing hadn't change to reflect the learning experience that he was using our jobsites for with his employee. His rates I was paying were the same as before when I was getting a master electrician on all of our jobs, which provided his experience gained through 20 years of work or more. Now we were getting sloppy seconds.

Now even though I am bringing up the rates as if they were a big issue, they weren't. Even if he wanted to strike a deal with a reduced rate whenever he sent his man over instead of him, I wouldn't have went for it cause no discount would ever equal the issues of dealing with failed inspections and everything else that comes along with the less experienced guy. The bottom line was I hired him for his experience and what he brought to the job. When he added his employee that changed.

Like I said before, he had the right to grow his business, but once again we had the right not to suffer through his growing pains if he can't figure out a way to deal with his growth without effecting the service we recieved.

Just a thought for all subs to consider about how some GCs might be thinking about these things.

Complete Pro

Now even though I am bringing up the rates as if they were a big issue, they weren't. Even if he wanted to strike a deal with a reduced rate whenever he sent his man over instead of him, I wouldn't have went for it cause no discount would ever equal the issues of dealing with failed inspections and everything else that comes along with the less experienced guy.

I have a question Mike

Have you ever considered adding a performance clause to your contracts with the subs? If an inspection is failed due to something that a sub, or his employee, missed or messed up would you consider back charging them for it?

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Mike Finley

I'm probably too easy. I am not a big fan of back charging because if I was using a sub that did something that resulted in needing a back charge I probably shouldn't be using that sub anymore. Not sure if that makes sense or not. I guess for me is I'm very choosy on who I will use as a sub, and some of the criteria for why or why I won't use a sub probably falls out of the norm of what most others in this business use. So if I am using a sub, I'm using them on a regular basis and if there is a problem most of the subs I use bend over backwards to fix it and do what it takes to make sure it doesn't happen again. So maybe it comes down for me that if something happens it's pretty much a one time thing and sh*t can happen to everyone and I let it slide. If things happen on a regular basis, sure you can start back charging them for everything, but in retorspect if I have to do that I probably shouldn't be doing business with them anymore in the first place. Most of the time money doesn't make up for more important consequences when things go wrong such as disappointing a customer, having to make excuses etc...

wireless

Your issue was not that the boss was not there. The problem was with the work not being done properly in a timely manner.

Ivinni

In light of these comments, I would have to ask you if you are on each of your jobs every day, all day? Never mind, I know the answer.

Back charge? Does your sub get to back charge you for the times he needs a question answered and you aren't available? I think not.

If he needed to be back charged for your lack of presense, that would be his fault, would it?

As you should. because we all make mistakes when we try to better ourselves.

Then you are not on the job to stop them form making those mistakes. Who is ion the wrong here?

Ultimately, the responsibility is yours. You rely on others to get it done, just as the HO does. What is it with contractors who live the mantra:

"Do as I say...and not as I do."

I don't get the high horse attitude.

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its not going to get better with straps, or new footings or even aroma therapy.