Question About Subcontracting

Tom Struble

alot of you guys don't understand but this is how the siding business is
most mid sized vinyl siding contractors want the homeowner to think that they use their own employees to separate themselves from the big guys [homedepot and the like]unless its small or a family business its usually not true anymore

ive seen the inside of one of those vans you see on the road...you know the ones that have about 10 feet of siding equipment stacked high on the racks

there were at least 6 magnetic signs each with a different siding contractors name on it

most of these guys won't give you work if your truck is lettered with your name on it


this is how the op is also planning on running his business i believe
i doubt he will ever have employees doing the install which is fine but he wont ever tell a home owner that

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Tom

SidingWindows

WiaW, I'm glad you see that it could be a really good move. For the right installer, it would probably be a blessing as I'm used to generating 3-5 jobs a week, every week, year round. I have been planning to get out of sales for years now, learning as much as possible and I'm finally ready to make the transition.

Most of my customers are cold called, so they have no clue about me to begin with. It's different in your situation where someone goes to a well respected lumberyard, and they trust whoever they recommend. I'm going to people who have never heard of me, and I'm approaching them, not the other way around.

soupdizzle

I'm so used to selling on the fact that my company didn't use subs, that I'm totally lost as to how to sell people on the fact that it will be subbed out!

Im pretty sure your problem is that you have spent the last 6 years convincing people that subs are bad. Now you seem to believe that. What you really need is to find some good subs that you can have a good working relationship with. Some one that does good work that you can sell. I think Kevin hit it on the head when he said the lines can get somewhat blurry if you let them and thats what HO are afraid of. You have to sell the product, the quality of your subs work, and your guarantee

just my two cents

KennMacMoragh

I'm still a little lost as to what your concern is. What will be the name of your company? Something that incorporates siding and windows I presume, not just windows. In the situation you explained, I would tell the homeowner that I will have a guy come over on this day to do this and this. If the homeowner asks if they are a sub, I would say yes. If he has a problem with that, and he wants to stick his nose in my business, then it's probably a homeowner I don't want to do business with anyway. Sounds like that would be someone who wants to be their own general contractor, they can have at it.

WiaW

A window guy who's business is slow wants to sub for me, and I really get along well with him, but his website says "Double Hungs Installed $325 tax credit eligible." Now if the customer looks my sub up on the internet, and sees that, when they paid $550 to me, they are going to be upset.
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If a window guy is advertising there prices, you don't want them as a sub. I do not sub myself for any thing, at least not yet. If you hire a sub that is doing what you are selling, you have to make sure that they are not going to take business from you. But it will happen. If you train and get a good crew going and start making a good living off your business, your guys will see this and go out on there own. Happens all the time and to most of the guys on this site. Being a good salesman is the deal.

katoman

What can I say? Welcome to the real world. (no insult intended here)

I watched a program about how the large corporations were actively recuting ex navy seals. Do you know why?

Because "can't" is not in their vocabulary. Set goals, and make it happen.

As I'm sure you know, when you go on the call, you are really selling yourself. I think a lot of HO buy from who they feel comfortable with and have confidence in.

Lots won't buy from the big box stores.

Kevin M.

I know why. If you have a corporate slacker the navy Seal eradicates him in 9 seconds.

WiaW

Just about every job that I get now is a cold call or contact from advertising. A few years ago, I never spent a cent on ads, all word of mouth, like most on here. I had more jobs than I could handle, and in, looking back, I regret the lose of one on one with clients.
Subs are good for you if they will give you and your client what they expect. It is a tough time right now, with all that is going on. I spend a lot more time with prospective clients than I used to, so as to try and get the job.

SidingWindows

kato, point well taken. I admit I'm not expert installer (never done it!), but so that you guys don't think I'm completely oblivious, here are some siding installation points I do know.

- The starter strip has to be perfectly level so that it doesn't become crooked as it goes up.
- the siding should be nailed at least 3/4" into the studs, not just the sheathing.
- Nails need to be left with a minimum 1/16" clearance so it won't buckle.
- There are approximately 115 nails per square of siding and just one of them too tight can cause it to buckle.
- You are not supposed to pull the siding up to keep the lines level because it could pop out during expansion or contraction.
- Different temperatures determine how much gap to leave at the cornerpost, I believe it's 1/4" in warm weather and 3/8" below 30 degrees.
- I know the differences and uses between utility trim, finish trim, starter, J channel, Fchannel, inside corners, outside corners.
- the only time you can nail into the face of the siding is the very top piece of a gable.
- Never have a gable vent and a ridge vent together.
- Minimum 1 square foot of ventilation per 330 square feet of space. 60% intake 40% exhaust is ideal.
- Overlap siding in the same direction, preferably 2".
- The height more depends on the siding exposure, for example 9" panels may fit exactly to 8', while 10" panels will need an extra one.

I'm not trying to show off or anything, I'm just hoping you guys realize i'm not a stupid salesman who has never taken an appreciation into how it's installed. I take it very seriously and I question everything, because I know how there are often multiple ways of doing things in construction.

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Tomstrouble, Agreed, that's how it is here. Funny about the multiple signs. I would prefer a sub who just does a great job installing but doesn't want to run a business or generate leads. Would be super nice if there was no sign referring to his own company.

Soupdizzle, you're right in that I have been so conditioned to slam the subs, but I don't believe it myself. I know that it's the right choice for me now and possibly for good. I just want to have control over ordering the materials, no matter how great the sub is.

Kenn, I'm still trying to pick between different names but yes they will all be siding and window focused. I understand your suggested approach to the homeowner, but I'm also not one to turn down a job just because the homeowner asked questions I don't feel comfortable answering. I'm just trying to figure out good responses and explanations so that I can keep the customers confidence up about the installation.

WiaW: that's totally another one of my concerns, I don't want business being taken away. However, finding a sub who is a great window installer and doesn't own their own window business may be difficult for me to find.

Kato: The company that I sell for put an ad in the paper for "sports minded people." I responded because I thought it was a sports job, but turns out they were just looking for that kind of competitive mindset. I know edward jones (basically a sales force of investment peddlers) actively recruits ex military. I'm 8 years military as well. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to fail because of subcontracting the work, I'm just trying to plan out everything and prepare for future concerns. I hear from HO all the time about how they won't go to home depot or lowes because they don't have their own installers.

SidingWindows

WiaW: it's pretty nice to hear that you spend time with people, because I know that's where a lot of contractors miss out. As much as we hate car salesmen, we all pretty much buy from them rather than the mechanic.

Can you imagine a car dealership where the mechanics all do the sales too at the same time? Or where the salesmen fix the cars!? haha.

katoman

Sounds like you've got everything you need. Just need to find a couple of good, honest crews, and you're off to the races.

Best of luck, and you can always get some straight up answers here, along with some good natured kidding at no extra charge.

I was doing siding in '72 during the boom times and made TONS of money. Got my siding diploma from community trade school.

WiaW

If I was closer to you, and you sell what you say, I would buy a new rig and you could sign it any way you want.
I never compete against any other business. I give my price and if it is accepted, I get the job, if not, I know that I have not limited myself to a sub standard job.

JumboJack

I'm kind of wondering if it would even be possible for someone to get a contracting license to start their own company if they don't have any hands on/in the field experience...In my state,California,one would need a RME or RMO to get a license.And that person would need at least four years of journeyman/supervisory experience.

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in texas with framing and cornish people will do it for 3.00 a foot. What do yall think about that? Just laber

Tom Struble

i got a feeling he already has his labor lined up with Carlos,or Hector or maybe Jose'

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Tom

JumboJack

Labor is one thing but he still would need someone to qualify for a license.

Assuming NY contractors are licensed....

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in texas with framing and cornish people will do it for 3.00 a foot. What do yall think about that? Just laber

katoman

Question - cannot someone open a company, sell work, and as long as it is done by licensed trades operate a company in California?

Would that mean Bill Gates needed four years as a journeyman computer guy?

SidingWindows

WiaW: I've never had a year where I haven't self generated under $400,000 worth of window and siding business. 2007 I did $990 something. December and July are historically my worst months, but even then it's still pretty good. Maybe when I get everything up and running smooth, you can come up and spend a few months out of the year working in the adirondacks, hah.

I've actually got two expert cold callers who are just waiting and about 10 other salesmen that are just dying to work for me. I'm going to just snowball the business slowly until I can bring every one on board. Once I find the right installers, they are going to be happy happy happy.

JumboJack

Like I said,if the owner of the company does not hold the needed license then a RME(responsible managing employee)or a RMO (responsible managing owner) would be needed to hold the license for the company.
And that person can't just be a "rent a license",they have to work for the company.

So to answer your question.No someone without a license can't own and operate a contracting company and just sub work out to licensed subs.The prime contractor has to hold a license.

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in texas with framing and cornish people will do it for 3.00 a foot. What do yall think about that? Just laber

SidingWindows

No jose or hector here, actually mexicans are pretty much nonexistant in upstate new york. Maybe down near nyc they are there, but not here at all.

ZERO license needed in upstate new york (only in nyc and the surrounding counties). Scary.

Also, new york has this labor law thing where if someone falls of a roof and are injured, they automatically win in court. It doesn't even matter if they are drunk or high. It's the only state with this law and it makes insurance completely astronomical for roofers to cover it, which is why I am not getting into roofing.

JumboJack

You got that right.

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in texas with framing and cornish people will do it for 3.00 a foot. What do yall think about that? Just laber